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      CommentAuthorCobweb
    • CommentTimeAug 11th 2016
    Hi, Pawel Stroinski.

    Since you link to a Polish site on film music, might I suggest that you acquaint yourself with not only Bronislau Kaper [who was #2 composer (after Rozsa) @ MGM studios during the 1950s] but also with the 'Golden Age' cinema from other countries besides Hollywood.

    If you like films directed by Ingmar Bergman, then you may very well appreciate the Polish films of Jerzy Kawalerowicz (who directed during much the same time span as Bergman), a few of which are quite Bergmanesque.

    There's a current Polish label called 'GAD' which has released several recording sessions from Polish language entertainments from the 1970s - though nothing from the Golden Age as it appears most if not all of the sound elements from vintage KADR productions no longer exist...
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      CommentAuthorCobweb
    • CommentTimeAug 11th 2016
    sdtom wrote
    At least I can discuss with you.


    I can join, too. Golden Age film music needs as much support as it can get and we shouldn't limit that to just Hollywood's 'Golden Age' either.
  1. Cobweb wrote
    Hi, Pawel Stroinski.

    Since you link to a Polish site on film music, might I suggest that you acquaint yourself with not only Bronislau Kaper [who was #2 composer (after Rozsa) @ MGM studios during the 1950s] but also with the 'Golden Age' cinema from other countries besides Hollywood.

    If you like films directed by Ingmar Bergman, then you may very well appreciate the Polish films of Jerzy Kawalerowicz (who directed during much the same time span as Bergman), a few of which are quite Bergmanesque.

    There's a current Polish label called 'GAD' which has released several recording sessions from Polish language entertainments from the 1970s - though nothing from the Golden Age as it appears most if not all of the sound elements from vintage KADR productions no longer exist...


    I actually recently finished a chapter of a collaborative monograph on a Kawalerowicz film and for another thing I had to finally get to know Mother Joan of Angels... so yes, I know who Jerzy Kawalerowicz is smile .

    When it comes to Kawalerowicz's early films, some of them didn't really have scores. Mother Joan has all but choral songs, same with Pharaoh.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 11th 2016 edited
    How would you define Poland's "Golden Age" (rough time period)? Late 50s to mid 80s? I just wanted to include as many of the auteurs as possible -- Wajda, Polanski, Skolimowski, Zanussi and Kiéslowski, at the very least.

    Of younger, Polish directors working today, I am particularly fond of Pawel Pawlikowski. But a Golden Age, it is not.
    I am extremely serious.
  2. Not being an expert historically yet (becoming one, however), I would say that Polish Golden Age ended in the 1960s like in Hollywood. Kieślowski and Zanussi come from a different school of filmmaking, which could be described as Polish New Wave (we call it "moral unease cinema") and under the possible influence of the French. That means heavy use of hand-held camera, a less outwardly visual approach (more urban and gritty), till Kieślowski turned to metaphysical cinema later on.

    Education-wise Wajda could be called Polish Ridley Scott, as he trained to be a painter/art director first. That's why he is heavily inspired by, especially Polish, visual symbolism and Polish 19th century paintings. Polanski came from the same time as Wajda did (actually his first film work was... acting in a Wajda film!). He and Skolimowski started out doing more contemporary cinema (of course, Polanski made only one feature in Poland, Skolimowski - like 3 or 4). But the Polish School, largely focused with the war and its aftermath ended in the 1960s and directors like Wajda and Kawalerowicz changed their approach a bit (Wajda went full on "moral unease" quite a few times when that movement was in its prime, even). Of recommended directors, I'd recommend you Andrzej Munk, especially his Eroica. Stanislaw Rozewicz, who I'm PhD-ing in at the moment is a great director, but he's more zero-than-zero style and his symbolism is mostly through subtle use of weather, for example, but I don't think except perhaps his 1961 film about children during war (Świadectwo urodzenia, which you could call "The Birth Act", I don't know the English title, though), a harrowing masterpiece. He is, pretty much, anti-style though. Contrary to Wajda, who used to be all about visuals.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  3. Oh, and Thor. Make sure you watch some Jerzy Kawalerowicz films, especially Mother Joan and Pharaoh (which initially looks simple, but far from it). He has a very visual style. Mother Joan is a downright masterpiece.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorCobweb
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2016
    Thor wrote
    How would you define Poland's "Golden Age" (rough time period)? Late 50s to mid 80s?


    Good question. I personally am not aware of much pre-1950s Polish films. I get the feeling that '30s & '40s Polish cinema - as with other countries' cinema as well - tended to be romantic, nationalistic, patriotic, etc.
    [such as the 1937 Yiddish item entitled Der Dibuk/The Dybbuk]

    The films I've come to associate with Poland hail from about 1954 onwards by such directors as Aleksander Ford, Wajda, Munk, etc. (which also paralleled the Communist situations that were then affecting Eastern European countries).
  4. So essentially from Wajda's debut, The Generation. That about makes sense. There were two/three relevant films (Forbidden Songs, The Treasure) that count as the beginning as well, but the true Polish post-war cinema starts about when you say it.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  5. Tom, I have a question. I am due Wednesday with a review of Friedhofer's The Best Years of Our Lives and I found a passing remark (a piece of IMDb trivia, really) that Wyler "despised" the score. Do you have any information on the subject? Are any William Wyler remarks on the score widely known?

    Sure, I know Prendergast's analysis of the score (not sure I will go with it, as I want to do it as independently as I can, though I do want to mention the book).

    Saw the film yesterday. A beautifully told story with psychology as subtle as 1940s would allow. Today perhaps they would go a bit deeper with Fred's nightmares, but I found the actual lack of flashbacks very classy.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2016
    Great film, great score. I often use the airplane cemetery scene in my lectures on film music history, more specifically about the Golden Age music approach of "externalizing" the psychology of the characters. I was not aware that Wyler didn't like the score. Sounds weird.

    Here's my ol' FSM thread (from 2001, no less!) on film and score:

    http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/p … ;archive=1
    I am extremely serious.
  6. Could it have to do with the film being fairly low-key and the score being not exactly too far from being the best score Alfred Newman did not write?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2016
    Wyler was not exactly known for subtlety, nor in the music department. Even if BEST YEARS was more restrained than usual. That's why the quote seems weird to me. Would be interested to know if it's anything more than a rumour.
    I am extremely serious.
  7. According to Tom's review, he wanted either Copland (based on Of Mice and Men) or Newman to do the score and Newman recommended Friedhofer.

    It's actually interesting, how the jazzy bits sound like Gershwin. Also, film-wise, I love how in this rather sad and poignant (especially for its time!) story, they didn't mind some unadulterated comedy in the form of Fredric March waking up half-conscious and forgetting to take his clothes off before getting a shower (and that while singing!)
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  8. Case solved - Friedhofer's score was too subtle for Wyler, whose war experience led him to a permanent hearing loss.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  9. Erik Woods wrote
    sdtom wrote
    Another score that I really like is "Prince Valiant" which takes you back to some of the Korngold/Steiner material. I'm still deciding which one I'm going to choose. I have a lot of feeling for Sunset Blvd. His material really contributed to the greatness of the movie.


    Absolutely brilliant and is one of my top 20 scores of all time!

    -Erik-


    Listening to it now (the original recording, as I'm not aware of a re-recording just yet), I'd say that maybe it is a "traditional" score in the structural sense, I think the sense of playfulness is, after Taras Bulba, quite Waxman's. It was a different epic model than Rozsa's for example.

    Waxman is a revelation for me. We had a review action on our website, which I participated in, partly because it made me watch films that I didn't watch before (most prominent being Citizen Kane, but also Sunset Boulevard and The Best Years of Our Lives) and I stayed in the Golden Age for last few weeks and I intend not to leave for a while (there is an occasional listen to Beyond Rangoon or something like that after a review, but I am coherently with ye olde times). I could make a comprehensive list of what I remember checking out (not all for the first time, for example, some of the Rozsa classics I of course knew before and in one case even own it on CD). I also started out with Max Steiner finally and Dmitri Tiomkin. I will definitely end up much more knowledgeable than I was before.

    It's not that I am completely unknowledgeable of older cinema and scores. It's just that I want to discover it, I am not often in the mood and frankly, contrary to Thor (obviously), I usually can take these scores only in complete and chronological form, as any selection (that said, Tiomkin's Fall of the Roman Empire yesterday and Prince Valiant as we speak, I'm listening to in more-less original albums), because they aren't just about the orchestral sound, they're about the structure where the genius of a composer like Steiner or Rozsa (them in particular) lies. And I don't want to be forced to know anything, I just have to discover it at my own pace. So I'm using the new interest I have to find scores and composers I haven't heard before smile .
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2016
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Tom, I have a question. I am due Wednesday with a review of Friedhofer's The Best Years of Our Lives and I found a passing remark (a piece of IMDb trivia, really) that Wyler "despised" the score. Do you have any information on the subject? Are any William Wyler remarks on the score widely known?

    Sure, I know Prendergast's analysis of the score (not sure I will go with it, as I want to do it as independently as I can, though I do want to mention the book).

    Saw the film yesterday. A beautifully told story with psychology as subtle as 1940s would allow. Today perhaps they would go a bit deeper with Fred's nightmares, but I found the actual lack of flashbacks very classy.


    Hope I'm not too late to answer you but this score is one of my favorite of all time. Wyler didn't like it because he wanteed Newman to do the score but Newman wanted Friedhofer his #1 orchestrator to do the score. The result was an Oscar for Hugo. Sounds like Wyler was being a jerk in my opinion.
    Tom
    listen to more classical music!
  10. Tom, have you heard of Rozsa's critique of Alfred Newman's Song of Bernadette?

    When I reviewed Greatest Story Ever Told a friend of mine wrote in a comment that Rozsa considered Newman's approach to his Oscar-winning work as "wrong". 10 years later, sadly, he doesn't remember why. Do you know something more? As I'm listening to the score on Spotify, I have no access to any liner notes possible.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  11. And I'm surprised with Wyler, because from what I found he wanted either Newman or Copland. What he got was the best of both worlds!
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2016
    One of my favorite top ten scores of all time. A must have for any collection
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2016
    PawelStroinski wrote
    Tom, have you heard of Rozsa's critique of Alfred Newman's Song of Bernadette?

    When I reviewed Greatest Story Ever Told a friend of mine wrote in a comment that Rozsa considered Newman's approach to his Oscar-winning work as "wrong". 10 years later, sadly, he doesn't remember why. Do you know something more? As I'm listening to the score on Spotify, I have no access to any liner notes possible.


    There's no story like that in the liner notes.
    I'd be greatly surprised if it's true though: it seems incredibly unlikely a critique from Rozsa.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  12. It is true, but there are no details given. There was a meeting with Rozsa in the 1970s, where in the summary the author said that Rozsa found Newman's approach "inappropriate", but no details were given. Rozsa was also very critical of Newman caving in to George Stevens' demand to record Haendel's Hallelujah for Greatest Story Ever Told, that he didn't fight for his own vision of the score.

    Rozsa was also highly critical of Tiomkin. He claimed that Tiomkin's Oscar speech featuring thank-yous to classical composers led him to quit the Academy.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  13. https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct= … cCsPuRflcA

    I'm giving such a convoluted link, because there is no specific link to the source.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2016
    Intriguing.
    Without any kind of context or explanation though I have no idea what to think of this.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2016
    He just might have not liked it
    listen to more classical music!
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      CommentAuthorThor
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2021
    I miss Tom's regular inputs on Golden Age cinema and scores. Last I heard, he was in a home with Parkinson's, but if you're reading, Tom, it would be great to get an update from you!
    I am extremely serious.
  14. Thor wrote
    I miss Tom's regular inputs on Golden Age cinema and scores. Last I heard, he was in a home with Parkinson's, but if you're reading, Tom, it would be great to get an update from you!

    I echo Thor's comments.
    The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn