BRIAN TYLER

It's a question of having a strong enough identity to call it somebody's distinct work. Zimmer has one. Giacchino has one. JNH has one. Even Korngold-ripping Williams (exaggerating for sake of discussion) has one. Horner (ripping every classical composer to have happened on Earth) has one. Tyler's not so strong.

The fact is Tyler DOES have a distinct voice. Listen to TIMELINE, CHILDREN of DUNE and PARTITION. How can you not notice the clear similarities in these? And then ANNAPOLIS, WAR and TOKYO DRIFT, you can hear similarities among those, and simiarities from that group to the more orchestral group.

Instead actually listening to his music, your picking away and looking for homages or rips or similarities in indivdiual tracks instead of actually listening to the works as a whole. You seem to have a predisposition to hate his music (because "other people like him" ?), so it's not really a surprise.

Hell, I can't think of anyone more overrated than your precious Giacchino. Peopel act like he's the second coming of John Williams...and it's just not the case. Not yet anyway.

The originality is irrelevant to me. I'm not going to argue whether it's original or not, I highly doubt ANYBODY working for film is completely original and that includes Williams.


My main point was that Tyler has a distinct sound that when you listen to all of his scores, you can tell, "oh it's Brian Tyler", I gave examples about the melodic structure, orchestrations and rhythms in the strings and such, but alas, some people seem to only hear what they want to hear.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

1. It's something I mentioned as a total contradiction to the rest of the world, really, who seem to call him one of the best guys working today. Which I disagree with. If I am biased against Tyler, it's not because I start to listen to him with the will to hate his work, but because I don't find things other people find and get frustrated that e.g. Children of Dune is not a five star work for me as it was for Clemmensen, AVP wasn't as great as you advertised the clips. Yes, that was supposed to shut the mouths of Tyler's naysayers, but alas, it actually opened mine. Each time I listen to a work of his I don't yet know I wonder what does he have that people adore so much in him. And each time I end up saying "Nothing" around the half of an album. Because hundredth reworking of Darkness Falls isn't something that would fascinate me the most.

2. I never said orchestral writing is so easy. I just don't give so much emphasis to it. The expression and overall performance is much more important to me than the technical aspect of a score. To give an example I believe Lion King is sometimes ridiculous in its orchestrations. But emotionally it's wonderful. On the other hand recently I mostly ask myself "OK, so what?" after a dramatic action/adventure score done by people of the generation Tyler happens to belong to. Yes. It IS very important and hard to do right. But there is one thing. When Mansell needed to write a fully orchestral adventure for Sahara, he was given Nicholas Dodd as a collaborator. See the thing? When directors/producer need a more orchestral score they either get Tyler, Powell or Giacchino, or they hire a composer like Mansell or other recent-ambient-starlet (with all due respect to the great composer that Mansell is, I'm rather objecting about the likes that recently start getting assignments and are not far from recent JNH outings) and give them Nicholas Dodd or a bunch of VERY good orchestrators like Robert Elhai (not against Tyler here, I am mentioning orchestrators that are known for specific sound), Nicholas Dodd, Ken Kugler, Steve Bartek (OK, I know I'm going into recent Zimmer territory, but again it's a case of names) or anybody who can pull an ambient composer into doing a rather rousing orchestral adventure.

OK, that actually says good about Tyler, but one remark to AVP - he didn't orchestrate it. But that's what I wanted to say when I mentioned that with decent help anybody could pull AVP off. Probably I would find the score much, much better, had I heard not as much of those Horner/Silvestri references, but more slower material, more emphasis (not in album length, rather in composer's attention) on underscore, there are many orchestral effects he could use without referring to Horner and/or Goldsmith. Loving homages? Maybe, but man, create more of your own identity, WHERE YOU CAN. That's the case. There are so many places for creativity, where he doesn't put it. Back to another league, Zimmer reinvented the horror genre for The Ring. Can't Tyler do it with Alien vs Predator?

How? First, screw Holst. Listen to more Penderecki and Goldenthal. What can we learn from then? Something in abundance in AVP 2, but not as much as with these guys. Demetris, correct me here, as you know more in that matter, but avant garde is much more percussive than any other classical music. Take a listen into The Passion of St. Luke. What we can get there? Magnificient musical atonal storytelling. Not easy to listen? Fuck, yeah. But that's what we intend to get. Brass is typical for action music in horrors and any genres, let's stick to strings, they have many amazing effects, lots of them I probably don't know yet. Listen to Giacchino. Listen to Horner's Aliens and The Ring.

OK, I believe that would give us a nice preparation. What do we learn from Penderecki? Percussion writing, lots of tom bangs. Helpful, though typical for avant-garde. Goldenthal and Penderecki give us orchestrational effects used a lot in horror scores. And the right atonality. Serial writing would be pretty intelligent here. Play more with counterpoint in strings, two series at once, one being the retrograde of the others and them for high tremolo violins? Quick minimalistic motifs (sounds Goldenthal perhaps) for the celli with a slower counterpoint for basses? Violas could play a sort of main theme then. OK, I don't know the film and probably I sound as generic and stupid as even Paul Haslinger would invent something better, but I'd look for more of a challenge than just referring to the scores. I always laughed of The Shining that the best thing about the music is that where composers rip off the pieces, Kubrick actually used the originals!

I know crap about orchestral writing, but what I mean here is that I would stretch about and look for something a bit more like a... challenge?

Yes, but I hope you understand what I'm talking about here. There are things to discover for all composers, Tyler including, that they never try!

I'm sure if you want to commission a composition, they'd be glad to try.

Why would they risk? more often than not, they'd not only risk their job, but future jobs by giving themselves the reputation of not doing what the direct wants.

I somehow doubt it. There's so much orchestral music out there that the ones you think are "original" you just havent heard the stuff that it might have been temped with.

Guys, could I implore you to follow James' example and only quote excerpts of posts that are actually relevant to the point you're gonna make?

The fact that entire essays that are quoted in response essays that themselves again are quoted in posts that only say "agree", makes this thread very hard to follow, which is a shame as a number of interesting point and arguments (and some not so good ones) are being made that are worth reading.

Thanks!

"A few", not "many", and certainly not that one, which I paid for and which I object most strongly to having done so, and I'll certainly never be paying for another Tyler score since I've been bitten too many times now. As if that's got anything to do with my right to complain anyway. The credit says "Music composed by Brian Tyler", it doesn't say "Music arranged by Brian Tyler", it doesn't credit the person who actually composed the music, it doesn't pass royalties to the person who actually composed the music, it doesn't make clear anywhere on the packaging that you're not buying an original release. That's what's wrong with it. It's a soundtrack album - an album - and I'm talking about that.

The "rip" is in DISPUTE. Just because you say it sounds like something doesn't mean that it's actually the same, and no credit is given.

And as far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not a DIRECT QUOTE WITHOUT CREDIT, it is not plagiarism.


If you are musically talented enough to paraphrase someone else's music so that it isn't obvious, then you are in the safe zone. Thats how it works in academia, and there's no reason it shouldn't extend to the real world (and it DOES extend to the real world....ever read a newspaper, how often do they cite their sources?).


You claim that James Horner composed THE GREATEST GAME EVER PLAYED. ASCAP would disagree with you, and in the end, that is whose opinion matters.

That's how the law sees it, too.



Not to me.

I was talking more specifically about "the others"

I heard Deep Blue Sea (still its not identical, only the first few notes, and even then there's a variation) Did not hear Lifeforce, I assume the Lifeforce rip was in a different cue that you didn't specify....all I have from lifeforce is the one silva cue, soo....)




Uh, what is the beautiful main theme from Partition ripping off?




I didn't take part in a RIP OFF thread at scorereviews, as far as I can recall. The only ripoff thread I remember bickering with you about was at MMUK about Lair.