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The current state of film music

General Discussions » The current state of film music (Posts 31 to 60 of 233)

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      CommentAuthormoviescore
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Southall wrote
    I'm sure in ten years, people like Anthony and Nautilus will be posting on these boards that they can't believe how bad things have got since the glory days of Kung Fu Panda.


    biggrin

    mc
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    franz_conrad wrote
    Marselus, I think you almost proved Southall's point for him!

    I don´t think so. Either that or my english is worse than I thought.

    Christodoulides wrote
    plus there are other Zimmer clones apart Badelt, Powell, HGW, Jablonsky, Djawadi

    I don´t consider Badelt, Powell and HGW clones. And being objective, I think nobody should.

    Christodoulides wrote
    MAny others, there's a list over at hans-zimmer.com...add them to the list as well

    Maybe, but they don´t get all the major projects; actually the y get the projects nobody would notice if they were scored by somebody else.
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008 edited
    Marselus wrote
    Southall wrote
    Marselus, you seem to miss the point. There are a few dozen films a year scored by either Zimmer or people associated with him, and they all have precisely the same approach to the music. And these are not small films. Any list of top ten films at the box office in any particular year these days is dominated by his music.

    Really? Check this out:

    These are links to the 2000-2008 top 15 list. Check out how many of the films have been scored by Zimmer or one of the so called Zimmer underlings.
    In case you don´t have time, I´ve kept a total after the link. Keep in mind I don´t consider (and no one should, IMO) John Powell, Harry Gregson Williams or Trevor Rabin a Zimmer clone (as you like to call them).

    Year 2000: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (2 films: MI 2 and Gladiator)

    Year 2001: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (3 films: Hannibal and Pearl Harbor)

    Year 2002: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (0 films)

    Year 2003: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (1 film: Pirates 1)

    Year 2004: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (1 film: Shark Tale)

    Year 2005: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (2 films: Batman Begins, Madagascar)

    Year 2006: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (3 films: Pirates 2, The Da Vinci Code, Over the Hedge)

    Year 2007: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (3 films: Pirates 3, Transformers, The Simpsons Movie)

    Year 2008: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/cha … amp;p=.htm (3 films: The Dark Knight, Iron Man, Kung Fu Panda).

    After this, you really think Zimmer and Co. are taking over the world of film music? You may like it or not, but in the 2000-2008 period, only 18 films out of 159 (counting the top 15 of each year) have been scored by Zimmer and/or clones.

    What happens? I´ll tell you what: we tend to overrate what we don´t like, that´s what happens. You don´t like Zimmer, ok, that´s perfect, it´d would be so boring if we all liked the same. But the links I provided are FACTS.
    And the argument "Zimmer and Co. take all the blockbusters possible, and all the films I want to see" is plain bullshit. Come on, let´s remember some of the blockbusters / sagas of the last 8 years (present in the top 15 of every year):

    - Star Wars saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Harry Potter saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - The Lord of the Rings saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Rush Hour saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - The Mummy saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Fast and the Furious: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Ocean´s saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Spiderman saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - James Bond saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Matrix saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - X Men saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Bourne saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.
    - Fantastic Four saga: none scored by Zimmer and Co.

    And this referred to sagas / trilogies / whatever. If you wanna talk about individual blockbusters (or popular movies), those that you are so anxious to watch them scored by any other composer but Zimmer the list is endless: The Grinch, Perfect Storm, A Beautiful Mind, Jurassic Park 3, Tomb Rider, Monsters, signs, Ice Age, Finding Nemo, Terminator 3, Hulk, Passion of the Christ, Polar Express, and this is only until 2004, but I could continue til 2008.

    So, again, what happens?
    You don´t like Ramin Djawadi´s Iron Man / Mr. Brooks / Beat the Drum?
    You don´t like Atli Orvarsson´s Vantage Point?
    You don´t like Geoff Zanelli´s Hitman?

    Ok, I don´t like them neither, and I think any other composer would have done it better.


    Nice! Thanks for that! beer

    To be honest, I'm somewhere in-between with the current state of film music. Not too unhappy, but not too pleased either. But I'm satisfied anyway smile . Firstly, as I mentioned earlier I don't listen to much Golden/Silver age scores and my main score interest is the 80's onwards scores. My personal Golden Age of scores is the middle 80's and complete 90s till 2000. And, as mentioned earlier, I see that most scores today lack the richness and thematic complexity the earlier ones had. Don't get me wrong, there have been man EXCELLENT scores in this decade, LoTR being the best example, IMO. But I feel that many scores these days are just more or less underscore - with a rich sound and instrument range, yes, but not as memorable as a standalone piece of music. For example, the recent Journey To The Center of Earth score by Andrew Lockington. I enjoyed it a lot and my passion, the action music, is superb, but it's not particularly memorable. I mean, I cannot find myself humming any tunes from it, or having any cue stuck in my mind. But then again, there are great stuffs coming out time to time, and that's nice smile

    Methinks I've already expressed my views about Zimmer multiple times tongue Just briefly, he may not have the thematic complexity of John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith, but I think the themes he does develop are great and his music is like a backbone for most films he scores. I agree he does have his share of uninteresting stuff, but his scores like Thin Red Line, Gladiator (if you don't mind the Mars stuff), Da Vinci Code, PoTC At World's End are some of the best I've heard this decade. Maybe because I don't listen to much classical music and more mainstream stuff, I'm also ok with his electronic/rock scores tongue

    And he's the man who introduced me to the film music world with his score to The Lion King, which will always remain my #1 favourite score of all time, so I will stand by him till death!
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    moviescore wrote
    Southall wrote
    I'm sure in ten years, people like Anthony and Nautilus will be posting on these boards that they can't believe how bad things have got since the glory days of Kung Fu Panda.


    biggrin

    mc


    These are far from the glory days already. rolleyes
    •  
      CommentAuthorelenewton
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    I can't believe someone would be so OBJECTIVE as to call Gregson-Williams or Badelt NOT a Zimmer clone.

    Tell me something---if Gregson-Williams is NOT a clone, then why David Buckley, who is a protege of Gregson-Williams, SHAMELESSLY quoted Zimmer's batman chord in The Forbidden Kingdom ? ---In case you haven't noticed, it's in the track "Hop's shop".

    Zimmer clones come in various forms and shapes.

    And yes, I am going to survive Zimmer, and his clones as well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    elenewton wrote
    I can't believe someone would be so OBJECTIVE as to call Gregson-Williams or Badelt NOT a Zimmer clone.

    Tell me something---if Gregson-Williams is NOT a clone, then why David Buckley, who is a protege of Gregson-Williams, SHAMELESSLY quoted Zimmer's batman chord in The Forbidden Kingdom ? ---In case you haven't noticed, it's in the track "Hop's shop".

    Zimmer clones come in various forms and shapes.

    We need another thread if we are gonna start talking "who quotes who". And trust me, no one is innocent.

    elenewton wrote
    And yes, I am going to survive Zimmer, and his clones as well.

    I insist my friend, you never know, you never know....
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Marselus wrote
    elenewton wrote
    And yes, I am going to survive Zimmer, and his clones as well.

    I insist my friend, you never know, you never know....


    Exactly. Never presume to think you'll outlive anyone! Chances are certainly greater that you'll outlive an older person, but then don't forget death is not mutually connected with age... dizzy wink
    •  
      CommentAuthorelenewton
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008 edited
    I'm not talking about plagarism, i.e. I'm not talking about Harold Kloser quotes King Arthur in 10000BC or Brian Tyler doing the similar things in Dune and Rambo.

    I'm talking about a protege of a protege of Zimmer, who is clearly brainwashed and thinks that batman chord fits an ancient China story, which makes this Buckley guy a Secondary Zimmer Clone of a Primary Zimmer Clone.

    Good for you but sad for me if these guys dominate. But I have the right to wish that they may get choked by some of their synth pads someday.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Steven wrote
    Marselus wrote
    elenewton wrote
    And yes, I am going to survive Zimmer, and his clones as well.

    I insist my friend, you never know, you never know....


    Exactly. Never presume to think you'll outlive anyone! Chances are certainly greater that you'll outlive an older person, but then don't forget death is not mutually connected with age... dizzy wink


    And no matter how long Zimmer lives, his influence on film music which he's created will always be there, whether anyone likes it or not.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    elenewton wrote
    Good for you but sad for me if these guys dominate. But I have the right to wish that they may get choked by some of their synth pads someday.

    Read my previous post (the long one) and you´ll see they don´t dominate. I´ve provided facts, numbers.
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008 edited
    My opinion and thoughts on the current state of film music is it could always get better I suppose?* (If it really is as bad as some people say.) Looking back through the decades, I wonder which trends and fads have actually stuck with us? Styles have certainly changed, fads have come and gone (perhaps to be quoted later on as pastiches), but there must be a certain approach to film scoring that has been prevalent through the 20th and on into the 21st century? Surely that being the leitmotif traditional orchestral score?

    I think a greater in-depth study of film music through the decades is perhaps important in this sense. "To see where we are going, we need to know where we came from" (or something like that). Zimmer's influence will certainly be felt for years to come, but will it still be as domineering as it seems today I wonder? Perhaps a certain equilibrium will be reached in the world of film scoring.

    *I personally am not as bothered about it as other people. There are still fantastic scores being produced, and there is a lot of potential for some truly great works yet to come. Also, I'm just glad film music is still going strong and has the chance to continue to do great things. I also appreciate all the great scores that have been composed during this relatively new art form of the motion picture. But then I must admit to being a bit of a hypocrite at times as I will listen to something like Star Wars and don the usual 'old man attitude' and complain that scores will never be the same. So I dunno.
  12. My opinion about the current state of film music...?

    I love them all! tongue

    No, honestly, without referring to this or that more or less reality-based opinion, my unique position as a roleplaying game master has tought me that there´s not one sort of score that can´t be used in a gaming session, and therefore they are all more or less useful to me. I even use them sometimes to annoy my players by choice. Even a score like Iron Man can, for example, be used for an unfriendly barbarian starting a fight in a tavern or a group of trolls roaming the supermarket where my players´ shadowrunners are buying supplies. Combined with the fun those scenes might evoke, even an annoying score might, well, score.

    I understand that enjoying an album as a stand-alone listening experience is something very different, but even scores like Iron Man have their audience.

    All in all I can only repeat what I said about how great it is being a filmmusic fan these days: There are still a lot of scores produced as we used to like them (though I admit it may be harder to find them), but beyond that, the range of choice has widened so much that there are a lot more people interested in scores these days. A bigger audience, regardless of the style they are interested in, helps the labels to realize projects like the rerecordings or publishing long-time out of print scores.

    I find the range in score available extremely enjoyable, and I don´t know if I still would love scores as much as I did thirty years ago if there wouldn´t have been some growth and new styles now and then.

    The dominance of Zimmeresque scores, however, is certainly NOT the composers´ fault, but the fault of the audience who decided they like it most these times. That´s the reality, I think, and nothing else. If Zimmeresque scores wouldn´t be the most popular, they wouldn´t be used. That´s hard for the Old Guard, but, in the end, all that counts.
    •  
      CommentAuthorelenewton
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Marselus wrote
    elenewton wrote
    Good for you but sad for me if these guys dominate. But I have the right to wish that they may get choked by some of their synth pads someday.

    Read my previous post (the long one) and you´ll see they don´t dominate. I´ve provided facts, numbers.


    I'm too lazy to provide exact numbers. But I know it'd be perfectly safe to say, that comparing to any other SINGLE composer, Zimmer scored more blockbuster films in the last decade.

    ---How many top-ten-box-office blockbusters did Howard Shore score in the past ten years? Three LOTR movies.
    ---Elliot Goldenthal? None.
    ---Danny Elfman? A few, but still fewer than Zimmer.
    ---Alan Silvestri? Few.
    ---James Horner? Some, but fewer than he used to do in the 90s.

    These are all A-list composers. When they are getting fewer assignments on blockbusters and Zimmer gets more, I call that "Zimmer Domination".
    •  
      CommentAuthorsdtom
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Not being an insider in the business I can only surmise that Zimmer has learned how to market his product well. The general public as a whole isn't concerned about the music so as long as 99%+ don't feel it is a distraction there is no problem with his music. When you're dealing with such a large customer base there are going to be some people who aren't happy with the product. As long as it is only a few nothing will change.
    Thomas smile
    listen to more classical music!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThomas
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008 edited
    I'm still amazed that some people really think that a single film score composer (Hans Zimmer) has influenced the music of ten thousand of movies by hundred os thousands composers. Film music is mainly influened by the music of its time. Film score geeks may think that film music is the most important art form in the universe but 99,9999% of the music played today is certainly no film music but pop and rock music and thus film music is influenced by this genres. No surprise that the music from the Golden Age sounds as it sounds.

    Also, it's always easy to blame a single person for everything that one don't like. Every composer can write masterpieces that impresses directors and producers in a way that no big movie production wants a Zimmer score anymore. So my answer for all composers that don't like Zimmer is: Do it better!
  16. I can't agree that film music is is influenced by the music of its time. I would say rather that film music is not up to date for about 10 years - Zimmer's career started when in the 90s he sounded like the rock of the 80s and I don't think jazz was so amazingly popular in the times when John Barry started his own career, or for that matter, Schifrin. It was the era of The Beatles, which neither Schifrin or Barry sound like.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Ralph Kruhm wrote

    I understand that enjoying an album as a stand-alone listening experience is something very different, but even scores like Iron Man have their audience.



    Britney Spears has her audience as well wink



    The dominance of Zimmeresque scores, however, is certainly NOT the composers´ fault, but the fault of the audience who decided they like it most these times. That´s the reality, I think, and nothing else. If Zimmeresque scores wouldn´t be the most popular, they wouldn´t be used. That´s hard for the Old Guard, but, in the end, all that counts.


    .....or that's what the studios and producers been feeding them.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008 edited
    Thomas wrote
    I'm still amazed that some people really think that a single film score composer (Hans Zimmer) has influenced the music of ten thousand of movies by hundred os thousands composers. Film music is mainly influened by the music of its time. Film score geeks may think that film music is the most important art form in the universe but 99,9999% of the music played today is certainly no film music but pop and rock music and thus film music is influenced by this genres. No surprise that the music from the Golden Age sounds as it sounds.

    Also, it's always easy to blame a single person for everything that one don't like. Every composer can write masterpieces that impresses directors and producers in a way that no big movie production wants a Zimmer score anymore. So my answer for all composers that don't like Zimmer is: Do it better!


    PawelStroinski wrote
    I can't agree that film music is is influenced by the music of its time. I would say rather that film music is not up to date for about 10 years - Zimmer's career started when in the 90s he sounded like the rock of the 80s and I don't think jazz was so amazingly popular in the times when John Barry started his own career, or for that matter, Schifrin. It was the era of The Beatles, which neither Schifrin or Barry sound like.


    There's certainly a different of phase from what the popular masses here people; if you think rock is what those kids listen to today (apart the bunches of emo kids), you're largely mistaken people. Go out in clubs where the youth goes these days and open your ears, take their mobile phones and iPods and see what's on; If film music was up to its times, the Zimmer / RC / Rock sound would be dead-gone 10 years ago and film music would sound like R'N'B / TRANCE / ELECTRONIC / DANCE today;


    ooops i am giving talented composers ideas
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  19. Bad Hans ! BAD !


    You're Evil !


    punk
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Thomas wrote
    I'm still amazed that some people really think that a single film score composer (Hans Zimmer) has influenced the music of ten thousand of movies by hundred os thousands composers.

    Totally agree.

    Thomas wrote
    So my answer for all composers that don't like Zimmer is: Do it better!

    Yeah! punk
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    While i don't agree that all the bad things in current film music happen 'cause of Zimmer and i am personally a big fan of large portions of his music through the years (except when he goes the Kung Fu Panda / The Simpsons movie road) you must be completely delusional as to everything film music as to suggest that 1) film music follows the current trends of pop music (see http://www.maintitles.net/forum/discuss … c/#Item_18) and 2) that Zimmer hasn't influenced largely the sound that is considered 'hot' today in film music, especially by the younger up and coming composers. Stop being ridiculously defensive and have some perspective.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Christodoulides wrote
    Stop being ridiculously defensive and have some perspective.

    What is ridiculous is start the Zimmer bashing thread at the first oportunity.

    Of course Zimmer has influenced the younger composers, but as much as a lot of people say? I don´t think so. For more details, see my box office post. Numbers don´t lie.
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    I don't say i agree with the Zimmer bashing but these people have made some good points too and you blindly continue to refuse to ever consider some of them. That's not different than bashing, the same extremes; just at the opposite side.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Marselus wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Stop being ridiculously defensive and have some perspective.

    What is ridiculous is start the Zimmer bashing thread at the first oportunity.

    Of course Zimmer has influenced the younger composers, but as much as a lot of people say? I don´t think so. For more details, see my box office post. Numbers don´t lie.


    They do if you curiously choose to omit various Zimmer-influenced composers from them! Though I do understand your arguments. Ultimately everyone has his/her own likes and dislikes, and his/her own reasons for those likes and dislikes. The Zimmer-bashing (as you call it) is because he's been so phenomenally successful and is so high-profile. Ultimately many of the same points could be made about other people in the past (eg one of my frequent complaints about him is that he tends to approach things always in the same way, unlike most of my own favourites, but I accept you could say the same thing about someone like Miklos Rozsa!) - it's all about our own personal feelings. I've laid mine out and they're true for me, even if they're not true for other people.
    http://www.movie-wave.net | http://facebook.com/moviewave
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    Thomas wrote
    I'm still amazed that some people really think that a single film score composer (Hans Zimmer) has influenced the music of ten thousand of movies by hundred os thousands composers. Film music is mainly influened by the music of its time. Film score geeks may think that film music is the most important art form in the universe but 99,9999% of the music played today is certainly no film music but pop and rock music and thus film music is influenced by this genres. No surprise that the music from the Golden Age sounds as it sounds.


    Why? Did they not have popular music during the 1950s and 60s? Were the youngsters of 1974 walking around whistling Debussy to each other to influence Jerry Goldsmith when he wrote Papillon? I know what point you're making and it's no doubt a reason for it (the studios want the score to appeal to the kids because they think it will make the soundtrack album sell well) but I don't think it is entirely true.

    So my answer for all composers that don't like Zimmer is: Do it better!


    Oh sweet lord, they do. They really do.
    http://www.movie-wave.net | http://facebook.com/moviewave
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008 edited
    Ok, this is so fun! biggrin

    While i was listening to the MAIN TITLES from Death Race i was reminded from where this shameless crap rip-off in the vein of Tyler Bates' stealing from Titus, is:

    BEFORE YOU REPLY, MAKE SURE YOU LISTEN TO THE COMPLETE 2 CUES FIRST.

    1) 20. GONZALEZ from MAN ON FIRE (HARRY GREGSON WILLIAMS) (2004)

    2) 2. MAIN TITLES from DEATH RACE (PAUL HASLINGER) (2008)

    Now, apart from the obviously ridiculous and laughable part of the whole thing on behalf of Haslinger and his director / whoever, i would really like a reply from each and everyone of you on whether the followers of Zimmer (and himself up to a degree) have - even partially or such in this case, directly, influenced the state of current film music. Then we can resume debating.

    wave
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  27. But wasn't Haslinger a player in film music via Tangerine Dream back in the early 80s? So in a sense, he's the pro... slant
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
    •  
      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    ...and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
    http://www.movie-wave.net | http://facebook.com/moviewave
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2008
    franz_conrad wrote
    But wasn't Haslinger a player in film music via Tangerine Dream back in the early 80s? So in a sense, he's the pro... slant


    That is a clear lift-off from a HGW 2004 score and another one of those scores that want film music rock-oriented, meaninglessly loud, blatant, completely unmelodic and built on guitar riffs and bass. I can't understand your point.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2008
    sdtom wrote
    Not being an insider in the business I can only surmise that Zimmer has learned how to market his product well. The general public as a whole isn't concerned about the music so as long as 99%+ don't feel it is a distraction there is no problem with his music. When you're dealing with such a large customer base there are going to be some people who aren't happy with the product. As long as it is only a few nothing will change.
    Thomas smile


    Such a short post but absolutely nailing it 100%!
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt

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