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As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)
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- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeApr 25th 2010
Ah, the Usual Suspect.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeApr 25th 2010
Holy shit.
They are nuts!Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeApr 25th 2010
Renowned scholar and intellectual powerhouse Stephen Baldwin recently uttered the line "If we're from apes, why are the apes still here?". It's funny how adopting a religion often convince people that they know more than scientists who've been working in these fields for most of their lifes. Arrogance and false certainty often seem to accompany faith, and that's one reason why I find it problematic.
Peter
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeApr 25th 2010
Faith and religion empowers the idiotic by giving stupidity precedence. So it's not hard to see why so many people are fed up with it! -
- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010
plindboe wrote
Renowned scholar and intellectual powerhouse Stephen Baldwin recently uttered the line "If we're from apes, why are the apes still here?". It's funny how adopting a religion often convince people that they know more than scientists who've been working in these fields for most of their lifes. Arrogance and false certainty often seem to accompany faith, and that's one reason why I find it problematic.
I can understand how you feel when people make outrageously illogical comments like that, and I don't support such thoughts. However, I ask you not to judge the entire community of religious people/theists/faith just because of the actions like this. Not every person who has faith in God is an ignorant idiot who blindly follows what religious priests tell him. Arrogance and false certainty aren't permanent companions of faith either. I know they aren't mine. I did meet quite some atheists who possessed them, though. Not pointing the finger at you or anyone here, just making a small point.
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- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010 edited
Read my words carefully, Ravi, as I don't judge the entire community of religious people. I'm careful with my wording, as I agree that there are many decent and intelligent people with faith (Kenneth Miller is a catholic scientist I'm a big fan of for instance). But it doesn't change the fact that faith often misleads people and convince them that they know more than they actually do. We're not simply talking about a few extremist minorities here, the megachurches of Ted Haggard, Assemblies of God, Southern Baptist Convention etc. have huge followings and wield immense political power. There's often alot of baggage when a person adopts a religion, and today, dismissal of several branches of science (evoution, global warming, big bang being the usual targets) seem to go hand in hand with a significant proportion of christian belief systems in the US. Is this a coincidence? No, it's clearly an effect of religious belief, and is obviously not simply a fringe lunatic minority.
Peter
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- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010
I did read your words carefully. Faith convinces everyone that they know more then they do? Well, it's true there are people who take up religion and blindly follow it, and think they have come to possess The Ultimate Truth™ and others who don't follow their beliefs are idiots. I don't think so. I'll be the first to agree that many of the 'facts' given by religions are scientifically absurd and people who claim to be omniscient because they follow those are indeed close-minded and biased. Does that mean faith as a whole is an evil entity that only serves to pollute the mind and a weapon that is only meant to 'empower the idotic'? I'm not going to be one who supports that way of thinking. I don't have any problem denouncing the elitist megachurches (or whatever) for their so-called all-knowing behaviour, ugly politics and whatnot. But I'm not going to bash faith as a whole for being evil, or every single religious belief of being so. Just like I wouldn't blame science of being evil because of the men who wreaked havoc with nuclear bombs.
I admit I don't know everything about the ongoings because of religion in the Western world. For example, I didn't know that evolution was such a big issue there until I read about the articles online. I studied in a Catholic school and we were always taught about evolution there, my own religion never opposes the concept of evolution. And I don't think there's any oppressive effect of religion on that here. I do acknowledge the problems arising in the West due to that, but I don't support those who say that it's reason enough to pass off faith and religion as a whole as oppressive elements. -
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010 edited
DemonStar wrote
I did read your words carefully. Faith convinces everyone that they know more then they do?
If you read my words carefully you'll realize that I'm not saying "everyone".
DemonStar wroteWell, it's true there are people who take up religion and blindly follow it, and think they have come to possess The Ultimate Truth™ and others who don't follow their beliefs are idiots. I don't think so. I'll be the first to agree that many of the 'facts' given by religions are scientifically absurd and people who claim to be omniscient because they follow those are indeed close-minded and biased. Does that mean faith as a whole is an evil entity that only serves to pollute the mind and a weapon that is only meant to 'empower the idotic'? I'm not going to be one who supports that way of thinking. I don't have any problem denouncing the elitist megachurches (or whatever) for their so-called all-knowing behaviour, ugly politics and whatnot. But I'm not going to bash faith as a whole for being evil, or every single religious belief of being so. Just like I wouldn't blame science of being evil because of the men who wreaked havoc with nuclear bombs.
I admit I don't know everything about the ongoings because of religion in the Western world. For example, I didn't know that evolution was such a big issue there until I read about the articles online. I studied in a Catholic school and we were always taught about evolution there, my own religion never opposes the concept of evolution. And I don't think there's any oppressive effect of religion on that here. I do acknowledge the problems arising in the West due to that, but I don't support those who say that it's reason enough to pass off faith and religion as a whole as oppressive elements.
It's strange that you seem to agree with me, but somehow seem to think I consider all faith evil and oppressive even though I've said no such thing. What I say is that faith often (i.e. not always) accompanies misplaced confidence and dismissals of science, and there are big consequences because of this (A poll as the one I linked to in my prior post is just one example, I can dig out more if you'd like). You seem to agree with me, so I'm not sure what it is you disagree with.
Peter
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- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010
OK... I seem to have misinterpreted some of your words. If you meant that "blind, unevaluated faith" is what misleads people, I agree. You don't need to show me more articles like that one, I've already read many of those. You're correct in what you say. Just remember that faith and religion are not necessarily synonymous. A person can have theist faith without actually being religious. So point made. 
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- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010
I agree, deists for example are non-religious theists. We might disagree about the definition of the term faith, but that's a big can of worms. I think we agree about a lot of other things though.
Peter
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010 edited
DemonStar wrote
Faith convinces everyone that they know more then they do?
I would say that faith (particularly religious faith) can convince you of wrong convictions with very little or no evidence.
Does that mean faith as a whole is an evil entity that only serves to pollute the mind and a weapon that is only meant to 'empower the idotic'? I'm not going to be one who supports that way of thinking.
I too wouldn't say that faith is an evil entity serving only to pollute the mind. Faith is clearly something people experience and hold onto in an attempt to bring happiness and meaning to their lives, and I've on doubt it works wonderfully. Unfortunately the nature of religious faith -strong convictions of things one cannot possibly know for sure- does tend to prey on the ignorant mind, and that does have an affect of empowering the ignorant simply because of the status that religion is given throughout much of the world. Now, read that carefully, because I am NOT saying that faith teaches stupidity, nor am I saying that every religious person is idiotic. But under certain circumstances (a lack of a proper education, political turmoil, things of that nature) religion, in the wrong hands, is a very dangerous weapon. And these are all too common circumstances.
But I'm not going to bash faith as a whole for being evil, or every single religious belief of being so. Just like I wouldn't blame science of being evil because of the men who wreaked havoc with nuclear bombs.
Of course, religion by itself is no more evil than a daffodil. In which case you're right to imply that it is the actions of men and women that create the 'evil'. But unlike religion, science is not based on ideologies. It doesn't teach us how we should live our lives, it doesn't ask us to worship any one thing, place, person or book. Science is simply the endeavor to explain the natural world (i.e. the only world). So the comparison between science and religion is a little misleading. Blaming religion for 'evil' is not the same as blaming science for creating bombs and destroying thousands and millions of lives. It wasn't science that encouraged men to create bombs for mass destruction; it was political ideology. Much the same way it was religious ideology and beliefs that encouraged those men (well educated men I might point out) to fly those planes into the Pentagon and the Twin Towers on September 11th. -
- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010
Steven wrote
I would say that faith (particularly religious faith) can convince you of wrong convictions with very little or no evidence.
Like I said, not every faith out there. There's more to faith than wrong convictions. But I agree with you on that some of it does do it.
I too wouldn't say that faith is an evil entity serving only to pollute the mind. Faith is clearly something people experience and hold onto in an attempt to bring happiness and meaning to their lives, and I've on doubt it works wonderfully. Unfortunately the nature of religious faith -strong convictions of things one cannot possibly know for sure- does tend to prey on the ignorant mind, and that does have an affect of empowering the ignorant simply because of the status that religion is given throughout much of the world. Now, read that carefully, because I am NOT saying that faith teaches stupidity, nor am I saying that every religious person is idiotic. But under certain circumstances (a lack of a proper education, political turmoil, things of that nature) religion, in the wrong hands, is a very dangerous weapon. And these are all too common circumstances.
Absolutely true. But like I said, anything of a power like that is dangerous in the wrong hands, be it religious ideologies or an AK-47 rifle. And the ignorant/selfish are not only going to use it wrongfully themselves, but convince other similar ignorant people to do it as well. But that doesn't make religion or the gun evil. Like that same gun can be used by police officers to shot an armed suspect, the same religious ideologies can be used by good people to spread warmth and harmony among others, the way it's supposed to be done.
Of course, religion by itself is no more evil than a daffodil. In which case you're right to imply that it is the actions of men and women that create the 'evil'. But unlike religion, science is not based on ideologies. It doesn't teach us how we should live our lives, it doesn't ask us to worship any one thing, place, person or book. Science is simply the endeavor to explain the natural world (i.e. the only world). So the comparison between science and religion is a little misleading. Those who blame religion for 'evil' is not the same as those who blame science for creating bombs and destroying thousands and millions of lives. It wasn't science that encouraged men to create bombs for mass destruction; it was political ideology. Much the same way it was religious ideology and beliefs that encouraged those men (well educated men I might point out) to fly those planes into the Pentagon and the Twin Towers on September 11th.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not really comparing science and religion here. Your point is valid in science not ever asking us to do anything. But I don't think pure religious belief is what drove those people to commit the 9/11 bombing either. Mind, I said pure. I admit I haven't read the Quran but I doubt it tells you to kill thousands of innocent people to please God. The masterminds behind that plan used a conveniently twisted and warped version of whatever is written in there to brainwash them into thinking they were carrying out God's deed by doing that. The fact that they were well educated men goes on to show that even such people blindly follow whatever someone tells them in the name of faith, let it override common sense and even humanity. Like I said that doesn't necessarily say that all Muslims are like that. I know quite some Muslims in real life and they're all normal and nice people who use a healthy amount of logic along with their beliefs. But then, I can't comment more about that issue because I am not too familiar with Islamic beliefs.
Also, I don't have a problem with what my religious faith tells me to do. If I cut the crap and look at the core ideals of the religion, it tells me to be a good human being, to do the right thing in all circumstances, to be truthful and helpful to others, to have faith in God and pay my respect to Him. I have no problem with that. Of course you don't need religion to tell you that, but that doesn't mean you can't choose to do so. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010
DemonStar wrote
Absolutely true. But like I said, anything of a power like that is dangerous in the wrong hands, be it religious ideologies or an AK-47 rifle. And the ignorant/selfish are not only going to use it wrongfully themselves, but convince other similar ignorant people to do it as well. But that doesn't make religion or the gun evil. Like that same gun can be used by police officers to shot an armed suspect, the same religious ideologies can be used by good people to spread warmth and harmony among others, the way it's supposed to be done.
Hmm, I know what you're saying, but again I think the comparison is a little misleading: A gun is not like religion. It doesn't come with a set of teachings or beliefs that one must follow on how to use it, even if interpretations wildly differ depending on where you go or who you meet (but I understand the temptation to use it as an comparative example).
Religion is a very sticky subject. On the one hand, it does teach its followers to do a lot of good, no doubt about it (although in some religions for less than respectable reasons; do good and you will be rewarded), but on the other hand it continues to have many negative repercussions, far too many to list. So what exactly is it about religion that causes such detrimental effects? Its inherent nature to convince you of wrong convictions with very little or no evidence. It's as simple as that. Once you believe something like 'souls exist in stem cells', which is a belief born of religious faith remember, one that doesn't require evidence, it doesn't take a genius to understand just why that can cause problems, particularly keeping in mind the status that religion is given in societies and politics.
But I don't think pure religious belief is what drove those people to commit the 9/11 bombing either. Mind, I said pure. I admit I haven't read the Quran but I doubt it tells you to kill thousands of innocent people to please God.
Speak to most Muslims, and I'm sure they will tell you that it is a peaceful religion. But only because their version, their interpretation of Islam is peaceful. They simply choose to ignore the more blatant references to death and murder (of which there are many) thanks to their own sense of morality, and choose to assign them as metaphors not meant to be taken literally. Well, that's all well and good, but unfortunately many do take them literally. Islam is inherently a violent, sexist, morally repugnant religion. It really was faith, Islamic faith, that encouraged those men to fly those planes into those buildings.
Also, I don't have a problem with what my religious faith tells me to do. If I cut the crap and look at the core ideals of the religion, it tells me to be a good human being, to do the right thing in all circumstances, to be truthful and helpful to others, to have faith in God and pay my respect to Him. I have no problem with that. Of course you don't need religion to tell you that, but that doesn't mean you can't choose to do so.
No, of course not. But you're using your own sense of morality to choose what you deem to be the right ideals of your religion. In your own words, you're taking it upon yourself to "cut the crap." That's very commendable and I'm glad you do, but remember many people aren't in a position to deduce the good parts from the bad. It's very easy to be mislead by religion coupled with a strong conviction of faith, and that tends to lead to many of the negative effects religion has on countries around the world. It's very easy to say "This is the right way to follow a religion, this is what religion is really about." But keep in mind that is exactly how a religious extremist feels. Just because you're able to interpret your own religion in a positive morally 'good' way, that doesn't mean all religion should be allowed a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. -
- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010 edited
Steven wrote
Religion is a very sticky subject. On the one hand, it does teach its followers to do a lot of good, no doubt about it (although in some religions for less than respectable reasons; do good and you will be rewarded), but on the other hand it continues to have many negative repercussions, far too many to list. So what exactly is it about religion that causes such detrimental effects? Its inherent nature to convince you of wrong convictions with very little or no evidence. It's as simple as that. Once you believe something like 'souls exist in stem cells', which is a belief born of religious faith remember, one that doesn't require evidence, it doesn't take a genius to understand just why that can cause problems, particularly keeping in mind the status that religion is given in societies and politics.
Oh I'm not arguing about detrimental effects of religions. I daresay we've had (and still have) more than enough of that over here. But that "inherent nature to convince you of wrong convictions with very little or no evidence" would again be a problem when a person is so devoid of rational sense that he blindly chooses to follow it without stopping to thinking about the logics of his actions, and the reasoning behind it. Not to ignore that people who come up with the stem cell crap like above are, more often than not, looking for an excuse with sensitive issue to strike with followers on an emotional level (equally unsensible people, I might add) in order to carry out their deeds. I'd like to add it's no longer proper religion at this point, it becomes a political weapon, a crude religious offshoot which has been conveniently modified to suit their work, but still enough to convince their blind followers. Then again, such religious offshoots are just one point. Like the wolf in Aesop's fables, selfish people like that are going use any suitable means as an excuse to manipulate people if they're so inclined to commit wicked acts. Can't do away with everything from politics to cricket, can we? It comes down to how much people use reasonable sense when doing what they are.
Speak to most Muslims, and I'm sure they will tell you that it is a peaceful religion. But only because their version, their interpretation of Islam is peaceful. They simply choose to ignore the more blatant references to death and murder (of which there are many) thanks to their own sense of morality, and choose to assign them as metaphors not meant to be taken literally. Well, that's all well and good, but unfortunately many do take them literally. Islam is inherently a violent, sexist, morally repugnant religion. It really was faith, Islamic faith, that encouraged those men to fly those planes into those buildings.
Alright, I'll let you have that one for now. Like I said, I'm not too familiar with Islamic faith. I only said that from personal experience with Muslim gentlemen, who were among the nicest and most helpful people I met, while still being fierce followers and defenders of their religious faith. And I could never feel that they would ever be manipulated into joining Al-Qaeda or anything of that sort. I agree impressions can be misleading, but that's just my honest opinion.
No, of course not. But you're using your own sense of morality to choose what you deem to be the right ideals of your religion. In your own words, you're taking it upon yourself to "cut the crap." That's very commendable and I'm glad you do, but remember many people aren't in a position to deduce the good parts from the bad. It's very easy to be mislead by religion coupled with a strong conviction of faith, and that tends to lead to many of the negative effects religion has on countries around the world. It's very easy to say "This is the right way to follow a religion, this is what religion is really about." But keep in mind that is exactly how a religious extremist feels. Just because you're able to interpret your own religion in a positive morally 'good' way, that doesn't mean all religion should be allowed a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card.
I'd then say that the solution to this debate is those people in question to be reasonable and use proper logical thought when doing any questionable act that religion supposedly tells them to do. Remember that heads of religious extremist groups are not sons of God sent on earth to represent religion, they are human beings who have risen to that position because of their influence over people and clever knowledge on how to win over the higher ups in the institution. I don't consider such extremism as proper representation of the religion, like I wouldn't consider the Nazi regime as a definitive representation of Germany and its people. Just because the head honchos are corrupt and selfish people doesn't really mean the following's law constitution is reflected by whatever they do. Especially because they don't follow the very morals that their own religion teaches them. It's easy to be mislead by religion/faith only when a person himself does not have a proper sense of reasoning in his head. I cannot comment on what every religion in the world teaches, I can only tell you my own does not ever teach committing heinous acts on fellow people, or anything related to that. If anyone does do it, it's a twisted and warped version which I wouldn't blame on my religion. It's not really just me interpreting my own religion in a positive morally 'good' way. Since I don't know everything about every religion in the world, I won't say anything on it. I only said that because I seemed to recall previous discussions where it was said every religion is like that, inevitably including my own. But like I said, if any religion actually tells people to commit evil acts to 'please' God, attain salvation or anything of that sort, there's no point in following it as its morality and credibility as spiritual faith is very questionable. But it doesn't represent every other out there.
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- CommentAuthorFalkirkBairn
- CommentTimeApr 26th 2010
Sorry, far too much writing...The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeApr 28th 2010 edited
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeApr 28th 2010 edited
Bad Request (Invalid Hostname)
God is punishing me for being an atheist.
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- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeApr 28th 2010
Probably just a coincidence Steven, on the other hand coincidences are Gods way of remaining anonymous.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
Haha! I just finished a book about a Dutch journalist who climbed the Ararat, as a endpoint for a search on why he had lost his faith (he was raised catholic but is now atheist). But it's mainly interesting to read about the history of the region (the Armenian genocide, the Ark searchers), and the history of the flood.
For example, I didn't knew that the first flood story is over 10000 years old, and tells the exact same story as Noah. The Jewish, the Islam, the Catholic church and other religions all have an own flood story, which is all based upon that very early event. This was probably based on a flood in Mesopotamia, between the Eufraat and Tigris in Iraq. The book also mentions the many 'discoveries' of the ark, and also tells about Jim Irvin (also an ark searcher), one of the first men entering space, turned into a complete creationist minded person. Odd how a person that once relied on science to get him to space, suddenly turns to God.
I love these kind of travel stories, that tell about the politics and history of the region/country or subject in case. The book was called Ararat by the Dutch journalist Frank Westerman.Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
Gilgamesh, a Mesopotamian epic, features events about the same as the Noah's Ark history.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
A former member of the expedition thinks it's likely a hoax. I don't think I've ever been less surprised.
Peter
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- CommentAuthorkeky
- CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
Bregt wrote
The book also mentions the many 'discoveries' of the ark, and also tells about Jim Irvin (also an ark searcher), one of the first men entering space, turned into a complete creationist minded person. Odd how a person that once relied on science to get him to space, suddenly turns to God.
It happens more often than you might imagine. People don't just become atheists, they become theists as well. That's why I say that science and religion are not "enemies". -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeApr 30th 2010 edited
Enemies? Perhaps not. At odds? Yes. Religion is intrinsically and inherently anti-scientific, even if one can be both a person of religion and a scientist. -
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeApr 30th 2010 edited
The reason between the tension between science and religion is a result of religious claims consistently been shown wrong by science. After centuries of removing God from gaps in our knowledge, he's practically become unemployed. For belief systems claiming to be the Truth, no doubt this results in alot of frustration and concern. There's another option though, and that's making God and other religious claims more and more nebulous and untestable. Religions appear to be evolving in that direction and it will likely be where the future of religion is. I don't think it's the most reasonable approach, but it's certainly superior to developing anti-scientific attitudes and it will make the adherents capable of embracing science instead of shunning it.
Peter
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeApr 30th 2010 edited
plindboe wrote
Religions appear to be evolving in that direction and it will likely be where the future of religion is.
I would say this is where moderate religious interpretation is evolving. Unlike science, religion is unfortunately immutable to progress, and the reason religious attitudes have evolved over the centuries (in terms of what parts of holy scripture to believe in or to ignore, what parts to interpret as metaphor or to take literally) is through the evolution of knowledge obtained from scientific reasoning.
For the sake of argument, ask a 14th century priest his thoughts on astronomy, and his ignorance would no doubt embarrass a five year old. Ask that same 12th century priest his knowledge about scripture, and it will match that of a 21st century priest's. (But, as already stated, interpretations may differ.)
Though I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted.
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010 edited
Life Sized Satanic Doll Serves As Masturbation Toy For America's Youth
Pastor Deacon Fred of the Landover Baptist Church commented, "The demonic characteristics of the Jar Jar binks creature become obvious when one pays close attention. His forked tongue, his lapping, his malignant features, are all too noticeable to the Christ centered man." Experts who have examined the life-sized doll that has become the favorite 'toy' of 12-14 year old children, say that the evidence is overwhelming. The doll was created for the sole purpose of masturbation. It has four openings, and three extrusions, making it compatible for male or female pleasure.
Landover Baptist Church finds that the only way to resolve this problem is to ban not only life sized Jar Jar Binks dolls from American homes, but to ban any life sized doll [...] For the Love of God! If you've got this devil in your house, remove it as soon as possible!
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0899/jar.html
Though to be fair, I probably hate Jar Jar Binks as much as the Landover Babtist Church do.
I should have posted this on April 1st though. -
- CommentAuthorkeky
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010 edited
I knew that something was wrong with Jar Jar!....
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
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- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 15th 2010
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- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeMay 15th 2010
:faint:On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
