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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    On a more general note, there are quite a few problems with a metaphysical description of consciousness that I was admittedly too lazy to point out. The first problem, as I see it, is the uneasy relationship it has to what we already know about the brain. In its broadest form, when you manipulate the brain in a specific way, it doesn't merely affect your ability to navigate the world, it can affect your very perception of reality itself. To give a point of reference on this -although I think Bregt's example of disturbing the brain with electrodes to produce feelings associated with NDEs is sufficient in itself- consider the point of psychopathy. When known psychopaths of a prison in the USA were given visual examples of others in pain, the parts of the brain associated with empathy, the 'anterior insula, the anterior midcingulate cortex, somatosensory cortex, and the right amygdala', failed to become active in the more psychopathic individuals.

    The brain doesn't just distort experience, it distorts consciousness itself. It's like putting on a pair of red sunglasses and seeing everything in red; but also coming to believe the world is red. These, and countless other examples (just visit a mental hospital if you doubt the brain isn't related to cognition) at least strongly suggest consciousness is an emergent property, even if its exact details remain a mystery. (Not to mention that much of what the brain does to keep us alive goes unnoticed by conscious thought, the apparent illusion of the self and that our decisions are not as autonomous as we like to think.)

    But the biggest problem, for me, is the ontological aspect and the difficulties that lay ahead of the presumptions that lie behind the metaphysical hypothesis. Let's assume the brain is a filter, in the physical realm, for a consciousness, a "soul", that exists in a 'spiritual realm' (whatever that might mean, something that often has a suspiciously vague definition itself). There are two ways to approach this hypothesis: The first is that the spiritual realm exists in and of itself, it came into its own existence by natural law. The second is that the spiritual realm is a result of a supernatural creator (invoking virtual reality simply pushes the question of consciousness back). In the first example, one is led to ask where and how this realm came into existence? What natural process at the beginning of creation necessarily created a realm of consciousness before consciousness had even appeared? Or did it appear only when the first conscious being awoke? Again, what natural process then might have led to its creation?

    The second point, and I contend this is its most popular form, is of course a god - specifically a benevolent, omnipotent one (God with a capital 'G'). But of course arguments for God, let alone one of a specific tradition based on Iron Age literature, fail to stand up to scrutiny - and for the sake of brevity I shall hardly attempt to cover them here. But why the need for a brain that mediates awareness in the first place? Could we not just have a brain that deals with things like keeping our heart pumping and our nervous system active and leave the actual conscious part to the spiritual realm? It seems a bit of a flaw in design that such a precious thing as consciousness can be so easily manipulated due to a fragile and complex brain so precariously placed upon our torsos. Again, the hypothesis lands on weak ground.

    As much as I sympathise with this view, essentially it boils down to an appeal to faith, wish thinking. It's a suspiciously ineloquent description that runs into more problems than it solves borne of an intuitive preconception, but a simpler, less problematic and far more beautiful one is available: We are the chance product of an uncaring, indifferent and vast cosmos, yet we are the arbiters of meaning in a meaningless universe through what appears to be a naturally evolved consciousness. If you'll excuse a moment of hippiness, feelings of love, awe and happiness (as well as their antitheses) are made all the more precious knowing they weren't simply created on the whim of a divine author. Or as Christopher Hitchens would have put it, a 'divine dictatorship'.
  1. I'll address more of your points later, but in what way

    Steven wrote
    We are the chance product of an uncaring, indifferent and vast cosmos, yet we are the arbiters of meaning in a meaningless universe through what appears to be a naturally evolved consciousness. If you'll excuse a moment of hippiness, feelings of love, awe and happiness (as well as their antitheses) are made all the more precious knowing they weren't simply created on the whim of a divine author. Or as Christopher Hitchens would have put it, a 'divine dictatorship'.


    is actually beautiful? I mean, do you happen to have an understanding why it's problematic to accept for religious people?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    Oh, and I still like Interstellar (just to stay on topic).
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I'll address more of your points later, but in what way is actually beautiful? I mean, do you happen to have an understanding why it's problematic to accept for religious people?


    In exactly the way I have described it.

    As I said, I empathise with those who wish for "something more". I can understand that the idea of a world without inherent meaning, to a person infected with religious thought, will seem like quite a nihilistic notion (as you've just demonstrated). But what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    Hold on. Maybe I misunderstand the precept, but how is the fact that love, awe, happiness and even the (in my opinion rather Freudian) need for an almighty All-father stem from human consciousness NOT inherent(ly human)?

    Or do you mean 'inherent' to mean (within the logic of religion) that these concepts would (only?) stem from an external motivator?


    EDIT: oh wait, I think I am mixing two different points. The 'world without meaning' is the concept of the Universe not caring, right?
    But that's hardly nihilistic...especially as the follow-up point -as you argued above- that all these senses and sensibilities (not only derived from but in fact encompassing consciousness) that make us truly human stem from our own selves actually go to show that we not only CREATE the very meaning for ourselves, we derive SATISFACTION from it.
    Why on Earth (heh) would the Universe have to do anything above and beyond that as well (even if it could)?

    Nothing nihilistic, problematic or disturbing about this!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    I'm a little confused who or what you're agreeing with here dizzy , but just to clarify my words: "inherent" meaning purpose exists in the universe already, a priori. "Nihilistic" meaning that without 'inherent purpose or meaning', everything is meaningless. (Both of which I'm advocating against.)

    Edit: I added commas which may clarify my statement somewhat!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    In a nutshell I was questioning your use and meaning of "inherent" within the context of your argument.
    And then I edited my post as I reread (and reinterpreted) your post. And added something within my own understanding of your use of the epithet "inherent".
    All while basically agreeing with your main point.

    So yeah, I can see where that may not have been inherently ( biggrin ) clear.

    But thanks for clarifying.
    With that, my earlier post is basically completely moot.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  2. Steven wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I'll address more of your points later, but in what way is actually beautiful? I mean, do you happen to have an understanding why it's problematic to accept for religious people?


    In exactly the way I have described it.

    As I said, I empathise with those who wish for "something more". I can understand that the idea of a world without inherent meaning, to a person infected with religious thought, will seem like quite a nihilistic notion (as you've just demonstrated). But what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be.


    Doesn't have to be "infected with" religious thought. Generally except existentialism, which you harken at quite strongly here, a lot of philosophical systems could possibly take an issue with it and yes, label it nihilistic.

    Interestingly what you remind of here is exactly similar to my own personal philosophy, though I don't think I'm actually that partial to, say, Sartre (or for that matter Camus' absurdism). And another interesting thing. The first philosopher who exercised this thought in a more serious manner was actually very religious smile I need more Kierkegaard.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
  3. Steven wrote
    PawelStroinski wrote
    I'll address more of your points later, but in what way is actually beautiful? I mean, do you happen to have an understanding why it's problematic to accept for religious people?


    In exactly the way I have described it.

    As I said, I empathise with those who wish for "something more". I can understand that the idea of a world without inherent meaning, to a person infected with religious thought, will seem like quite a nihilistic notion (as you've just demonstrated). But what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be.


    "Infected" with religious thought? That lets religious convictions look like paranoia. One should not pathologize dissenters imho.

    Could it not be possible btw, that the fact that the possibility of consciousness to emerge by way of evolution is embedded in the matrix of this universe, might in itself indicate an inherent purpose. I raise you Hegel ... and Percy Bysshe Shelley: "I am the eye with which the Universe beholds itself and knows itself divine."
    Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.
  4. Hegel may be a tad too weird for Steven to accept. And really, while I admire the Hegelian project, I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions his dialectics, but I love the idea. Myself I prefer dialectics to dichotomy, philosophically. And I like his processual approach.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    Captain Future wrote

    "Infected" with religious thought? That lets religious convictions look like paranoia. One should not pathologize dissenters imho.


    I admit my choice of language does seem harsh, and I certainly don't mean to reduce adherents of religious reasoning to bed-ridden ignoramuses. But I stand by the use of the word insofar as religious thinking serves to poison the well, so to speak, on other matters. Everything is necessarily viewed through that lens.

    Could it not be possible btw, that the fact that the possibility of consciousness to emerge by way of evolution is embedded in the matrix of this universe, might in itself indicate an inherent purpose. I raise you Hegel ... and Percy Bysshe Shelley: "I am the eye with which the Universe beholds itself and knows itself divine."


    Of course, absolutely. That all sounds very lovely. Is there any evidence for it? Nope.
  5. There will be never any evidence for any metaphysical thought. This is why it's called metaphysics (after or beyond physics) in the first place. It's a matter of moreless (mostly less, it's an emotional realm) logical reasoning and understanding in philosophical rather than scientific sense.

    The statement you gave about "indifferent cosmos" can be also treated as an emotional understanding which is maybe scientifically informed, but not necessarily testable in any conditions.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    It's an emotional understanding insofar as it's an observation from an emotional being. A rock could hardly describe its existence as indifferent to other rocks.

    There will be never any evidence for any metaphysical thought.


    If 'meta-' is always outside of that which can be know, then absolutely. That's what it means in this context (which is rather damning to the notion to my mind). But let's not get hung up on words here. Just to rein the topic in, I'm referring to an immaterial consciousness as a metaphysical assumption, but that doesn't mean a description of an immaterial consciousness is necessarily outside the realm of science.
  6. Indeed. Depends on how do you perceive cognition. If it's purely rational and referring to things we can actually learn rationally, then it is indeed always outside of that which can be known. I however believe that there is a sort of emotional perception that also influences how we live our lives and essentially leads to a higher (not necessarily "higher" in terms of being or having to do with a "higher being", you can say "elevated") understanding of the world around us. And metaphysical thought (how much it's been attempted at building a rational system out of it, but when it comes to things I don't know if Descartes could fully define "Reason", Hegel his concept of "Spirit" or Dilthey and Simmel their concept of "Life") is always more in the emotional realm, sometimes even to the point of being a core part of our sense of identity.

    I just don't want there to be a sense of false dichotomy. Then we could argue that religious people don't actually feature a brain and scientific people aren't capable of any emotions, if we reduced the dichotomy ad absurdum.
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    Steven wrote
    Just to rein the topic in, I'm referring to an immaterial consciousness as a metaphysical assumption, but that doesn't mean an immaterial description of consciousness is necessarily outside the realm of science.


    I guess you mean a "description of immaterial consciousness" rather than an "immaterial description"?

    PawelStroinski wrote
    The statement you gave about "indifferent cosmos" can be also treated as an emotional understanding which is maybe scientifically informed, but not necessarily testable in any conditions.


    Only because "indifferent" as a qualification is closely linked to the concept of caring.
    That's a bit too semantic for my liking: it's clear (to me) that Steven simply suggests that the Universe abides by its natural laws without any special role for mankind: asteroids do not bend out of their way to let the earth pass, entropy doesn't slow down in our galaxy.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    Martijn wrote
    Steven wrote
    Just to rein the topic in, I'm referring to an immaterial consciousness as a metaphysical assumption, but that doesn't mean an immaterial description of consciousness is necessarily outside the realm of science.


    I guess you mean a "description of immaterial consciousness" rather than an "immaterial description"?


    Ha! biggrin

    Yes. shame
  7. While at it, doesn't "immaterial description" (just out of genuine curiosity, not mocking) in scientific terms mean "meaningless"?
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    Yes.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    And now I think I deserve the prize for the most concise and easy to understand post in the entire thread.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    Here you go

    Though this definitely files under meaningless rather than the material you'd prefer. wink
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    I WANT A T-800!!
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    Just change your name to Sarah Connor.
    He'll come.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  8. Yeah, and then he'll say FUCK YOU ASSWHORE....
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    Pawel, are you drunk?
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
  9. No, I'm learning new phrases just as Arnold did biggrin
    http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    I strongly suggest getting drunk instead! wink
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthorTimmer
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014
    biggrin
    On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2014 edited
    On the topic of brains, here's a cool video of a 'subdural hematoma operation'. Skip to 40 seconds for the good bit. (Not for the squeamish.)

    icecream
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2014
    This just links to the top of the page?
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2014
    Crap! Sorry. Try it now. (Fucking four times I just edited that until I got it right. slant )