[Closed] Now Playing XXXVI

Yes, but a) it's Goldsmith and b) the subject nature of the film lends itself to grand music, even if the film itself is crap.

But what a score.

NP : THE BIG COUNTRY - Jerome Moross



One of the very best scores ever written, true brilliance.

Remote Control/Media Ventures aside, film music and cinema has changed. Can you imagine something like Normandy landing in Saving Private Ryan scored by Miklos Rozsa? Or Black Hawk Down done by Bernard Herrmann?

I know I will take lots of criticism here, but bear with my theory. I think cinema went back to what it tried back in the 70s but with higher production values and, alas, CGI. I won't talk about the differences between the 1970s Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 and the Tony Scott remake (which I actually enjoyed as a movie and I don't think Gregson-Williams's theme is very bad) here, because it's pointless. What I am getting at is that cinema, after the purely senseless, though score-inspiring, action period of 1980s to mid 1990s got back to the idea of being more realistic, down to earth and gritty. Granted, we won't get another French Connection here, but the return to hand-held camera work is an interesting thing.

JNH said something important about the condition of modern film scores when he said about Dark Knight that they tried not to give away too much information about characters in the score. While the wording here was very unfortunate, I kind of get the point of what he said. That said, they failed here, when they overloaded a few scenes in the end of the movie to almost unbearable proportions. Intensity backs off to ambient. Giving identity backs off. A composer told me it's a time issue, but the producers are afraid giving the music too much identity and intensity will kill the movie. And with the gritty character, it may. The point though is that a movie like Black Sunday could use little music (not all music cut from the movie is a good idea), today what producers are afraid of (and/or directors) is also, alas, silence.

Because his last two movies were god-awful.

Erik's best of 2009 show. Great stuff, Erik. Thanks.

I'm currently listening to his #3 from 2009 for the first time (it's been on my list of things to get, but that is a very long list).

Great score huh?

-Erik-

This is clearly true, but cinema has changed throughout the ages (look at the changes faced by say Goldsmith or Bernstein between the late 50s and early 00s) and the best composers have always found a way to musically illustrate stories without resorting to simple drone. Having said that, I can't seriously imagine that people like James Newton Howard actually like having to write music like that in the Batman films - it's there because that's what the director wants. Maybe that's the one thing that has changed beyond others (in terms of music) - directors these days have a lot more power than they ever used to and someone like Christopher Nolan who clearly doesn't like film music which says anything can get his way very easily. It's hard to disagree, mind - I would never want to listen to the albums ever again, but his two Batman films are both terrific even with their anonymous music. Could they be even better if they had different scores? Well, maybe - who knows. You can't argue with their success.

Agree. For Nolan's 21st century Batman, what they created is perfect. Let's not remain stuck

You say that Nolan clearly hates film music, which you don't know. He likes the score to be seamless with the sound design - a part which Zimmer actually clearly LOVES about working with him. Though, as much as I love the Joker sound design and the basic idea, if you ask me if Dark Knight could have had a better score, I'd say yes. Batman Begins, in my opinion, could not. A slightly different score to Dark Knight (actually I would have them rescore the whole movie from the Ferry sequence to the end, especially the final Gary Oldman monologue,

You mention Goldsmith and Bernstein which are prime examples, but I think the best comparison of the style changes would be, when it comes to older composers, Goldsmith and Williams in the early 2000s.

Could a piece like Battle of Yavin be written today? I think not. Not because composers got worse. John Williams wouldn't have written it anymore himself. Goldsmith? OK, he could have written the First Blood theme in this decade, but listen to Sum of All Fears or Star Trek: Nemesis. I think this got slightly beyond his decision to simplify his style after the rejection of Legend or the relative lack of appreciation to his work on Total Recall (I heard two theories here). Does it mean that they became worse film composers in the years? Not at all! I'd take Minority Report ANY DAY over Towering Inferno, for example. Same for War of the Worlds (the only Williams score I don't really like in last decade must be Munich). Could a score like Black Sunday fit a movie today? I think that it actually could. It's a case of the intelligence of the composer. If not Williams himself again, I'd love to give that kind of movie to Desplat and see what he does with it.

Often the whole discussion resorts to the fact that Hans Zimmer simplified and dumbed down film music in last years and while I think he's one of the more intelligent (though least orchestrally proficient) guys in the genre, his trying to make the story more complex actually gets the effect you are mentioning, partly because of his approach. It's not only the interviews. Da Vinci Code fails as a film score precisely (I think moreso than Dark Knight or Batman Begins), because he tried to do something smart and intellectual (and so damn serious) for a ridiculous religious thriller... But he tries to be smart and not an idiot there. I commend him for that.

I actually think Williams just got better and better as the years went by. At least, his music got more interesting to me. I love a lot of his 70s/80s stuff without question, but for me (and possibly no other human being) his golden period was the 2000s. Goldsmith I tihnk changed far beyond that, he realised (whether it was Legend or Total Recall or whatever that prompted it is open to question, but the fact that it happened I don't think is) that he was simply putting more effort in than anyone else and that actually he could earn just as much money and just as many awards (ie none) by taking a much simpler approach like most of his colleagues.

As for Da Vinci Code being an example of Zimmer trying to be smart... you had me with everything else, but then you had to go and say that! For me it wasn't just a bad score, but one which was truly idiotically misguided. I think he's written smart scores on a few occasions (Thin Red Line and Black Hawk Down most obvious to me) but certainly not that one!

I hope you're not suggesting that something like DAVID JULYAN's "prestige" is lacking emotional depth or adequate functions in the narrative. And what has a film like Lawrence of Arabia and the hollywood / era it represented with anything today or in fact Nolan's films? It's a wholly different style and it works flawlessly in what Nolan's doing; not everything must be symphonic in films in order to be interesting.

I cited Lawrence of Arabia because it's the polar opposite of the Nolan scores, that's all; it adds to its film rather than just trying to stay out of the way. I guess a fan of the Nolan scores would counter me saying they don't add anything by saying they're simply a part of a wider whole, functioning in a way that scores hadn't used to. Don't see it myself, but I guess that's the argument.

And yes, I think the music The Prestige is awful.

You know, you're quite right. But it's INTERESTING music! And I think it DOES have something to say.

Sorry it took me a while to get back on my feet after this. I was at my first listening of Dragon when I "wrote" that. It was just hard to regain use of my speech afterward. I was swept off my feet after just one listening, before most of the themes have even started sinking in. I can only imagine how much better this score is going to get with repeated listening! Wow. I hope Powell NEVER feels he's gotten to big or important for animated movies and action/comedies. I hope he follows in Goldsmith's footsteps and keeps accepting "fun" assignments until his very last score.

NP: Star Trek III, Horner

Alright, let's see what this expanded stuff has to offer...