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[Closed] Now Playing XLVII
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- CommentTimeApr 10th 2015 edited
Scribe wrote
You are developing a frustrating tendency to write off anything I say as "due to a personal connection" instead of discussing what I am actually saying. "Everything you say about McKenzie not being pastiche is wrong because you like McKenzie"
No, I understand what you're saying. I'm just not buying your (or Pawel's) emphasis on this score for anything other than being part of Zimmer's 90's stylings. A strong personal connection was thus the only reasonable explanation I could see for this emphasis. Unless you're saying that everyone is misunderstanding film music history by hailing BOURNE as the defining moment while in actuality it is KING ARTHUR?! (I can hear absolutely nothing in ARTHUR that has a BOURNE vibe. An ostinato does not a Bourne riff make!).
I feel this is an oversimplification. Ostinati are everywhere now. They're an all-consuming virus. You'd have to have an extremely broad definition of "action movie" to make this statement work. Is Tron Legacy a "contemporary action movie"?
I think it is, yes. But as I tried to explain above, the particular 'trend' is more than just an ostinato (which have existed since the dawn of time). There are other elements to the sound, that have since been developped in this and that direction over the last 13 years.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 10th 2015
NP: The Bourne Supremacy (2004) - John Powell
The spake to me words of wisdom and - behold - they were right. This one is even better.
VolkerBach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 10th 2015
Thor wrote
Scribe wrote
You are developing a frustrating tendency to write off anything I say as "due to a personal connection" instead of discussing what I am actually saying. "Everything you say about McKenzie not being pastiche is wrong because you like McKenzie"
No, I understand what you're saying. I'm just not buying your (or Pawel's) emphasis on this score for anything other than being part of Zimmer's 90's stylings. A strong personal connection was thus the only reasonable explanation I could see for this emphasis. Unless you're saying that everyone is misunderstanding film music history by hailing BOURNE as the defining moment while in actuality it is KING ARTHUR?! (I can hear absolutely nothing in ARTHUR that has a BOURNE vibe. An ostinato does not a Bourne riff make!).
I actually think that the Batman ostinati are more after King Arthur than Bourne and I think in some way Da Vinci Code's Chevaliers de Sangreal proves that that was the direction Hans went into.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 10th 2015
The Bourne Ultimatum - John Powell
[spoiler]Damn[/spoiler] good. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
Debating whether KING friggin' ARTHUR influenced film music is like stepping into the Twilight Zone.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015 edited
Thor wrote
Debating whether KING friggin' ARTHUR influenced film music is like stepping into the Twilight Zone.
He created ENGLAND ( or Engerland ) and kicked all you Norse horn heads out of the country so I guess it's not a great leap.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
Timmer wrote
Thor wrote
Debating whether KING friggin' ARTHUR influenced film music is like stepping into the Twilight Zone.
He created ENGLAND ( or Engerland ) and kicked all you Norse horn heads out of the country so I guess it's not a great leap.
Ha, ha...well, on THAT we do agree.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015 edited
Well, Engern and Angeln were Saxons of course. They founded England defeating that little Celtic domain down south in Cornwall. Come to think of it England is basically a German colony. Fitting that House Hanover is ruling it.
VolkerBach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015 edited
Captain Future wrote
Fitting that House Hanover is ruling it.
WAS! Not since 1901, Captain.
The Brits nicely did away with them.
(Of course a point could be made that the House of Saxe-Coburg may not have been of entirely undisputed British stock, but hey-ho... At least it's lovely British Windsor now! God save the rule Britannia in Jerusalem and all that.)
Timmer wrote
He created ENGLAND ( or Engerland ) and kicked all you Norse horn heads out of the country so I guess it's not a great leap.
I've always felt a great sense of order and righeousness, not to mention high expectations for my own personal future, that one would be able to wield supreme executive power because some watery tart threw a sword at one!'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
Thor wrote
No, I understand what you're saying. I'm just not buying your (or Pawel's) emphasis on this score for anything other than being part of Zimmer's 90's stylings. A strong personal connection was thus the only reasonable explanation I could see for this emphasis. Unless you're saying that everyone is misunderstanding film music history by hailing BOURNE as the defining moment while in actuality it is KING ARTHUR?! (I can hear absolutely nothing in ARTHUR that has a BOURNE vibe. An ostinato does not a Bourne riff make!).
I am not assigning any causality or influence to KING ARTHUR, merely emphasizing its significance as a signpost along the way. I thought we were talking about the history of ostinato usage and I was attempting to portray that while it may seem like "just another 90s Zimmer score" from the perspective of 2015, at the time it was a significant advancement in the usage of the device. Of course there is more to "the modern sound" than ostinato usage and there is no similar "vibe" between the two scores but after reading Pawel's comment I thought we were talking about the history of ostinato usage in general and those scores are both significant signposts albeit with completely different "vibes". I apologize if I misunderstood the conversation.I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to! -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
PawelStroinski wrote
I actually think that the Batman ostinati are more after King Arthur than Bourne and I think in some way Da Vinci Code's Chevaliers de Sangreal proves that that was the direction Hans went into.
100% agree. At the time this was my favorite new scoring "feel" so I was searching out every hint of it in the few scores it appeared in. Now, I couldn't care less, because it's been done to death and usually not even as well as in those first few Zimmer projects. If you're going to rip off Zimmer, at least bother to make it better than the original.I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to! -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015 edited
Martijn wrote
Captain Future wrote
Fitting that House Hanover is ruling it.
WAS! Not since 1901, Captain.
The Brits nicely did away with them.
(Of course a point could be made that the House of Saxe-Coburg may not have been of entirely undisputed British stock, but hey-ho... At least it's lovely British Windsor now! God save the rule Britannia in Jerusalem and all that.)
Britannia rules Jerusalem? Not since 1948.
Yeah, Sachsen-Coburg it is. Even more fitting even though modern day states of Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt have nothing to do with the old Saxons nor has House Sachsen-Coburg. The state of Lower-Saxony on the other side has. Combinded with Westphalia (which is essentially Upper-Saxony) it is the area where the old Saxons lived.Bach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
Captain Future wrote
Yeah, Sachsen-Coburg it is.
Nope. It's Windsor since 1918.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
OK, ok. but realtions are still close, also to House Hanover.Bach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
Yeah, but mainly because most royalty is thoroughly inbred. Close relations usually translate rather less to historical or diplomatic ties than to desperately impending marriages!'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015 edited
Scribe wrote
I am not assigning any causality or influence to KING ARTHUR, merely emphasizing its significance as a signpost along the way. I thought we were talking about the history of ostinato usage
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly not been talking about the 'history of ostinato usage' -- which is a weird thing to say in itself, since it basically means the history of repeating figures or rhythms. I've been trying to be FAR, FAR more specific than that, but it seems to be coming back to that reduction. Like an ostinato!I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
NP: The Bourne Ultimatum (2007) - John Powell
A great trilogy of scores all around.
VolkerBach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015 edited
Thor wrote
Scribe wrote
I am not assigning any causality or influence to KING ARTHUR, merely emphasizing its significance as a signpost along the way. I thought we were talking about the history of ostinato usage
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly not been talking about the 'history of ostinato usage' -- which is a weird thing to say in itself, since it basically means the history of repeating figures or rhythms. I've been trying to be FAR, FAR more specific than that, but it seems to be coming back to that reduction. Like an ostinato!
The history of ostinato usage in modern film music and the modern "sound". I'm talking about the recent history of the specific use of ostinato that you and Pawel have been discussing all week, and you know that. Do you have a better term for "ostinato as used in modern film music"? If you do, then I will certainly use it in the future.
I only got involved in the discussion because of what Pawel said about KING ARTHUR being of similar important to the development of the "modern sound" as Bourne. I'm sorry I am not technically advanced enough to use the exact right terms, I'll shut up nowI love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to! -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015 edited
Scribe wrote
The history of ostinato usage in modern film music and the modern "sound". I'm talking about the recent history of the specific use of ostinato that you and Pawel have been discussing all week, and you know that. Do you have a better term for "ostinato as used in modern film music"? If you do, then I will certainly use it in the future.
Well, I'm not really interested in "ostinato as used in modern film music" because -- again -- that's a phrase that's so wide it's devoid of meaning. That's like saying "the use of notes in modern film music". My only concern was the BOURNE riff and its influences. For my own layman's description of its specific properties (of which a steadfast ostinato is obviously one), I refer you back to the last page.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 11th 2015
Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia - Jerry Fielding
One of his best. Strident modernism blended with colourful Mexicana. Brilliant. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Scribe wrote
Thor wrote
Scribe wrote
I am not assigning any causality or influence to KING ARTHUR, merely emphasizing its significance as a signpost along the way. I thought we were talking about the history of ostinato usage
I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly not been talking about the 'history of ostinato usage' -- which is a weird thing to say in itself, since it basically means the history of repeating figures or rhythms. I've been trying to be FAR, FAR more specific than that, but it seems to be coming back to that reduction. Like an ostinato!
The history of ostinato usage in modern film music and the modern "sound". I'm talking about the recent history of the specific use of ostinato that you and Pawel have been discussing all week, and you know that. Do you have a better term for "ostinato as used in modern film music"? If you do, then I will certainly use it in the future.
I only got involved in the discussion because of what Pawel said about KING ARTHUR being of similar important to the development of the "modern sound" as Bourne. I'm sorry I am not technically advanced enough to use the exact right terms, I'll shut up now
Thor wrote
Scribe wrote
The history of ostinato usage in modern film music and the modern "sound". I'm talking about the recent history of the specific use of ostinato that you and Pawel have been discussing all week, and you know that. Do you have a better term for "ostinato as used in modern film music"? If you do, then I will certainly use it in the future.
Well, I'm not really interested in "ostinato as used in modern film music" because -- again -- that's a phrase that's so wide it's devoid of meaning. That's like saying "the use of notes in modern film music". My only concern was the BOURNE riff and its influences. For my own layman's description of its specific properties (of which a steadfast ostinato is obviously one), I refer you back to the last page.
Well, I have to clarify a couple of things. I don't think that, except Inception, The Thin Red Line played any role in developing Hans' minimalist tendencies, because that score is as far removed from what we understand as minimalism in the classical tradition as it can be. One ostinato-based track (Stone in My Heart) doesn't make it an ostinato-based score or in that way minimalist. Inception pushed the Stone in My Heart ostinati further "down the river" (pun intended as the "music must be like a river" was Zimmer's motto during work on both Inception and The Thin Red Line). It may belong to the so-called religious minimalism tradition, but also that doesn't fully convince (Part is used, not rewritten, in the score, there are bits like Cantus In Memoriam Benjamin Britten in an exquisite piece not on the album, too) me. The score could be classified (oversimplification of course) as orchestral ambient, but that's just about it if you want to classify it in any way.
I do however think that while Bourne might have suggested Hans to go in a certain direction, his own Batman ostinati are more like expansion of King Arthur's ideas than simply going with the Bourne ideas (especially as the electronica there harkens more at Hans' pre-Gladiator work than anything Powell wrote, hell, there's even a Black Rain quote in Molossus, if just one) and his evolution went as far as Chevaliers de Sangreal (and whatever used the same pattern later on). The most similar thing Hans wrote that could be to Bourne would be rather Frost/Nixon, but then again... it does harken at the more classical minimalist tradition at times.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
I clearly need to listen to KING ARTHUR again, because I'm not seeing or hearing what you guys are hearing here. It's always seemed like a late extension of his 90s stylings to me. Nothing more, nothing less. But if there is any "ostinato-based" influence (sigh!), then why couldn't it be attributed to BOURNE, which came out two years earlier? Why are you all so insistent on making Hans Zimmer immune to the BOURNE riff influence?I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Because the ostinati sound different. It's not for example JNH's Salt which almost quotes the Bourne ostinato. It's a different kind of development. I've been thinking the same thing about King Arthur... but it was pretty influential for Hans. The ostinati aren't so obvious, but there is that kind of motion, as you'd have later in Chevaliers de Sangreal at times.
In other words... if there is a precedent in the composer's own career, I rather follow that precedent rather than looking somewhere else . The composer (Hans, Williams, or anyone else) comes first for me.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
Of course it sounds different. That's because Zimmer does his "own spin" on the prevalent trend. That's my opinion and evaluation. Zimmer has always been very much in tune with what's happening in popular music and on the film score scene -- sometimes he's even the one who starts trends (like the power anthems in the 90s). So in this case he notices the influence of his former student John Powell, takes it into consideration and then develops it into the BOURNE RIFF STYLE VOL. 2 - THE ZIMMER VERSION -- starting primarily with BATMAN BEGINS.
If there had been any other score in Zimmer's oeuvre prior to BOURNE that was clearly a precedent for the BATMAN BEGINS sound, then yes, I would buy your argument. But there isn't, really. A little bit here and there, of course (Zimmer will always be Zimmer), but not enough to justify the 'leap'.
Even though he may seem like the God of film music at the moment, Hans is NOT immune to other influences. It would be interesting to hear his own take on this particular subject. Wish I had asked him that question at the Q&A in Krakow last year instead of the 'power anthem' one.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
I'm not saying that he's not immune to other influences by any means, I just think that that particular structure was something he was onto by himself anyway. I do agree that Bourne could have been a bit of a "Hmm, I could do that kind of thing myself" kind of influence, but I don't think his idea with the ostinati had anything to do with whatever Bourne's riff original intent was. I do claim that Bourne trilogy is one of the least understood temp-track influences (in terms of application, not in terms of our perception) in Hollywood history, because they don't quite get what it's all about. Same with the Horn of Doom. The fact that it's the loudest aspect of Inception doesn't mean that it's all about the horn of doom and so on.
And as King Arthur had no particular Bourne influence I just think it was an extension of that.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
Thor wrote
Well, I'm not really interested in "ostinato as used in modern film music" because -- again -- that's a phrase that's so wide it's devoid of meaning. That's like saying "the use of notes in modern film music". .
No it isn't, and you know it, and you're deliberately being obtuse because I have repeatedly given examples of the specific phenomena I am referring to. But if you really are not interested despite you having been discussing this exact thing with Pawel whether you know it or not, you literally have no idea what I've been talking about the entire time and that's quite depressing. I will stay away from these discussions in the future because I don't want to be reminded that I inhabit a different headspace than almost everybody else where things that are glaringly obvious to me, don't even exist to other people. There is a clear phenomena / musical device / "thing" that appeared in the early 2000s that I have watched develop over the past 15 years and been fascinated by it and I would like to be able to talk about it with fellow film music fans but you are deliberately or otherwise making it impossible for me to do so by obsessing over the definition rather than the thing itself, having pre-concluded that because I don't know the right words and definitions, I couldn't possibly have any interesting or meaningful thoughts to share. Very well then. Since you obviously have zero interest in what I am trying to communicate as anything but a thing to argue with, I will stay away next time someone mentions a film music subject I happen to be extremely knowledgeable about in a non-verbal way. Because obviously this is a message board that is about using words to talk about film music and if someone is in a disadvantage in that area, well why should he or she even try? It's just slowing the others down really. I would not want to do that.
</emotions>I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to! -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
You seem to be wildly mixing personal feelings and theoretical debate, Matt.
You clearly have a strongly felt theory that is not necessarily bo(u)rne out by facts or immune to counterargument. But by taking this personal you kinda set up an impossible debate, because no one can argue against feelings. The only valid response would be "good for you", "Yeah, I feel the same", or "no, I feel differently".
Which is nice, but doesn't make for much of a discussion.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
I'm not saying that he's not immune to other influences by any means, I just think that that particular structure was something he was onto by himself anyway.
Well, we won't know that unless we ask him ourselves, I guess. I doubt it, to be honest.
I don't think anyone expected the kind of impact Doug Liman's BOURNE IDENTITY would have on the mainstream Hollywood action movie, with gritty lighting, handheld cameras, realistic action setpieces and so on. Not to mention a contemporary, REAL view of European cities. Hollywood hadn't seen anything like it since they applied European arthouse sentiments to action films in the late 60s and early 70s (FRENCH CONNECTION etc.). Powell's score became part of that whole thing. So the influential aspect is partly the sound itself, but even more the sound as applied to that particular style.
I think Zimmer was as influenced by the Bourne riff as anyone else doing action films post-2002, but as opposed to the others, he did his own twist on things and developped it further into the BATMAN films, INCEPTION and so on.
I know we will probably never agree here, so better to agree to disagree.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
Martijn wrote
You seem to be wildly mixing personal feelings and theoretical debate, Matt.
You clearly have a strongly felt theory that is not necessarily bo(u)rne out by facts or immune to counterargument. But by taking this personal you kinda set up an impossible debate, because no one can argue against feelings. The only valid response would be "good for you", "Yeah, I feel the same", or "no, I feel differently".
Which is nice, but doesn't make for much of a discussion.
My interest is in the Bourne riff and its historical significance, Scribe. Feel free to introduce a separate topic on 'ostinato-based music', but then you need to define it more clearly like I did with the Bourne riff earlier. Just use laymen terms if you don't know the technical terms. Otherwise, I don't know where to start or begin. 'Ostinato-based music' is a term that is 90% devoid of meaning to me. Music based on repeating figures? Ok. What else?I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
I don't really seem to get what's going on here.Bach's music is vibrant and inspired.