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- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
Captain Future wrote
I don't really seem to get what's going on here.
If I were to boil it down, Pawel, Scribe (and lp?) do NOT believe Zimmer was influenced by John Powell's Bourne riff. I disagree. I think he very much was, like everyone else.
And then there's some extra stuff that I don't really understand. Something with KING ARTHUR and whatever.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
Thor wrote
My interest is in the Bourne riff and its historical significance, Scribe. Feel free to introduce a separate topic on 'ostinato-based music', but then you need to define it more clearly like I did with the Bourne riff earlier. Just use laymen terms if you don't know the technical terms. Otherwise, I don't know where to start or begin. 'Ostinato-based music' is a term that is 90% devoid of meaning to me. Music based on repeating figures? Ok. What else?
I'm sorry. I always make the mistake of thinking that everyone who has listened to the same music as me is aware of everything that is going on in said music in the same way that I am. This is stupid of me. Especially knowing that you generally listen to and enjoy completely different music than I do. It would be nice if people here would respect me enough to believe that I know what the hell I'm talking about even if I am doing a bad job of explaining it, instead of trying to argue with me before admittedly even understanding what I'm trying to say, but I understand I do not deserve such respect so I will stop making an idiot out of myself.
Martijn wrote
You seem to be wildly mixing personal feelings and theoretical debate, Matt.
Nope. Not at all. I understand if you can't be bothered to read my verbal diarrhea but if you're going to bother to comment, why not actually read the discussion first? It should be incredibly obvious that my "personal feelings" are not about the subject matter itself, they are about the way the debate, which I barely care about, is being carried out.
You clearly have a strongly felt theory that is not necessarily bo(u)rne out by facts or immune to counterargument.
Nope. Nothing to do with theory, and I don't feel anything about it either. I feel things about how I am treated. I was asking for help describing a phenomenon which is an observable fact so that I might contribute a helpful observation to the discussion. I don't personally care what influenced what, although the discussion of it is interesting in a theoretical way. I just wanted to know how to talk about a phenomenon whose existence is not in doubt any more than a (pre-computer-era) color's existence would be in doubt because no one had come up with a word for it yet. When I am calm and detached if I still care about this I will put together a sample suite illustrating the device I am referring to.
In the meantime I will crawl back into my Asperger's shell and hate myself more for my inability to accomplish telepathy with words on the internet.I love you all. Never change. Well, unless you want to! -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
So...is it over? Can I crawl out of my fridge yet? -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
Scribe wrote
You seem to be wildly mixing personal feelings and theoretical debate, Matt.
It should be incredibly obvious that my "personal feelings" are not about the subject matter itself, they are about the way the debate, which I barely care about, is being carried out.
Sorry, Scribe. You're doing it again.
I was asking for help describing a phenomenon which is an observable fact
I just wanted to know how to talk about a phenomenon whose existence is not in doubt any more
No matter how often you repeat it, these are not FACTS, Matt. They're just opinions!
At least they are in the way you describe them in your "verbal diarrhea".
Now it may well be that you mean something entirely different that can indeed well be described in objective terms that everyone can agree on, which may then lead to an analysis on how "not in doubt" they really are (which may well be the case). But for now, all I can see is a clash of opinions. Or rather one of feelings versus theory.
But you're perfectly welcome to thinking that I (too) simply misunderstand you.
In general though the basis for any meaningful discussion is a common vocabulary.
And that clearly seems to be missing. Which makes for a very confused (and confusing) exchange.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
Scribe wrote
I'm sorry. I always make the mistake of thinking that everyone who has listened to the same music as me is aware of everything that is going on in said music in the same way that I am. This is stupid of me. Especially knowing that you generally listen to and enjoy completely different music than I do. It would be nice if people here would respect me enough to believe that I know what the hell I'm talking about even if I am doing a bad job of explaining it, instead of trying to argue with me before admittedly even understanding what I'm trying to say, but I understand I do not deserve such respect so I will stop making an idiot out of myself.
I'm not sure why you're reacting the way you do. This is all about the basics of communication, as Martijn alluded to. When you introduce a term such as 'ostinato-based music', and I say that I need some more specification in order to have a meaningful conversation about it, I would normally expect such a specification from you (like my feeble attempt at describring the "Bourne riff" a couple of pages ago). But instead, you seem to take it personally that I do not understand what you're talking about. I'm sorry to say that I'm not a mindreader. Not over long distances, anyway.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Thor wrote
PawelStroinski wrote
I'm not saying that he's not immune to other influences by any means, I just think that that particular structure was something he was onto by himself anyway.
Well, we won't know that unless we ask him ourselves, I guess. I doubt it, to be honest.
I don't think anyone expected the kind of impact Doug Liman's BOURNE IDENTITY would have on the mainstream Hollywood action movie, with gritty lighting, handheld cameras, realistic action setpieces and so on. Not to mention a contemporary, REAL view of European cities. Hollywood hadn't seen anything like it since they applied European arthouse sentiments to action films in the late 60s and early 70s (FRENCH CONNECTION etc.). Powell's score became part of that whole thing. So the influential aspect is partly the sound itself, but even more the sound as applied to that particular style.
I think Zimmer was as influenced by the Bourne riff as anyone else doing action films post-2002, but as opposed to the others, he did his own twist on things and developped it further into the BATMAN films, INCEPTION and so on.
I know we will probably never agree here, so better to agree to disagree.
I actually was thinking of writing something more about the Bourne trilogy as a 1970s conspiracy thriller. I think it would work very well (though of course, it's not post-Watergate, but post-9/11 and so on).
Though to be honest, I think in terms of the visual influence it's more on Greengrass' sequels than Liman's original.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
Though to be honest, I think in terms of the visual influence it's more on Greengrass' sequels than Liman's original.
Greengrass pretty much follows the template the Liman set up, IMO. But of course, Greengrass has the most distinct voice of the two, in terms of their subsequent filmographies.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
I was quite surprised that Liman's film was somehow less hand-held than I thought after I originally watched it, but yeah, that's why Greengrass was chosen. Basically they wanted to see Jason Bourne Bloody Sunday style.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Interstellar Hans Zimmer
I'm tempted to say this is my favourite Zimmer score, edging just beyond Inception. Perhaps too much fuel is wasted worrying about such things...I just know it's brilliant and I love it. -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Ah, someone's actually listening to something!The views expressed in this post are entirely my own and do not reflect the opinions of maintitles.net, or for that matter, anyone else. http://www.racksandtags.com/falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
I miss the old days when we used to discuss ostinati and stuff.Bach's music is vibrant and inspired. -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Thor wrote
PawelStroinski wrote
Though to be honest, I think in terms of the visual influence it's more on Greengrass' sequels than Liman's original.
Greengrass pretty much follows the template the Liman set up, IMO. But of course, Greengrass has the most distinct voice of the two, in terms of their subsequent filmographies.
Pawel has a point on this one. Its as dramatic a visual shift as say it was between the first and second Hunger Games films.A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
franz_conrad wrote
Thor wrote
PawelStroinski wrote
Though to be honest, I think in terms of the visual influence it's more on Greengrass' sequels than Liman's original.
Greengrass pretty much follows the template the Liman set up, IMO. But of course, Greengrass has the most distinct voice of the two, in terms of their subsequent filmographies.
Pawel has a point on this one. Its as dramatic a visual shift as say it was between the first and second Hunger Games films.
There's a difference, but not dramatic. The important thing from a historical point of view is the difference between action films before IDENTITY and then after.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
FalkirkBairn wrote
Ah, someone's actually listening to something!
How boring. Let's discuss!I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Thor wrote
There's a difference, but not dramatic. The important thing from a historical point of view is the difference between action films before IDENTITY and then after.
I'm sure the cinematographers involved would be fascinated to learn of the differences from a practically-minded outside observer.A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Practically-minded? I'm all about aesthetics, baby!I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015
Which they would no feel for, of course. Thank God for the university that has seen the truth -- that you know better.A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
King Arthur - Hans Zimmer
I felt I had to.
Extremely silly - but certainly enjoyable for the most part - music for an extremely moronic - and certainly not enjoyable - film. It feels now as it felt at the time, like a curious throwback for a composer whose finger usually feels on the pulse - not just a throwback by a decade to his own power anthem stuff, but also the Enya shite a few years after even James Horner had given it up.
Edit: I can certainly hear the precursors to Batman Begins that Pawel mentioned. And I can certainly not hear anything Bourne-like. -
- CommentTimeApr 12th 2015 edited
franz_conrad wrote
Which they would no feel for, of course. Thank God for the university that has seen the truth -- that you know better.
Well, you know...I doubt cinematographers are very much into anything that isn't just the practical side of whatever it is they're working on in that moment. Let them do the work and us socalled fans and researchers do the contexts!I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015 edited
You would be surprised. One of major Polish cinematographers (think early Polish cinema of the 1950s-1960s, shot Ashes and Diamonds for example) is very much into philosophy and art history and theory. He quotes Taoists, Orthodox Christian aestheticists... everything that gets him closer to getting an intellectual concept of light and light as a representation of life and its complexities.
I would imagine people like Gordon Willis, Owen Roizman, John A. Alonzo going the distance to research things that bit more. Emmanuel Lubezki could be very intellectual... John Toll maybe a bit less. I think one of Polish cinematographers working in the US said that the reason why we are so popular in that regard is that the education we get in the Łódź film school is very general. They don't just practice cinema, they watch it and live it from many, including theoretical, standpoints.
And what you say about Identity vs. the sequels... I think that Liman was quite tame compared to what would come (in both Hollywood and the franchise itself) after Greengrass came onboard.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015 edited
PawelStroinski wroteAnd what you say about Identity vs. the sequels... I think that Liman was quite tame compared to what would come (in both Hollywood and the franchise itself) after Greengrass came onboard.
Possibly. It's debatable. What's NOT debatable, however, is that he established the Bourne template that would become so influential. The Zürich sequence, in particular, but Paris too. The whole thing, really. Just as Zimmer took the Bourne riff and ran with it in the years that followed, so did Greengrass build on Liman's basic recipe.
It all comes back to IDENTITY, a tentpole film and score in the action genre in the last 15 years. I'm sticking stubbornly to that reading of film (music) history, but anyone is free to disagree.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015
But really, the burden of proof is on you in this case... To me the ostinati in Batman Begins are an extension of what was really hinted at (barely, as Southall described the score quite well) in King Arthur which had no Bourne influences at all. Are you also saying that Chevaliers de Sangreal also features a Bourne-like riff then?
Maybe you could make a case about the Bourne influence somewhere in Hans' oeuvre (Research Montage in Frost/Nixon with a touch of Philip Glass?), but I just can't find it anywhere in the main Batman string ostinato, except that there is a two-note repetition in that motif... It's much more prominent in JNH's Salt
And definitely it wouldn't hold any ground in case of Inception, where the Stone in My Heart influence is not only clear on the musical level, but also I know on the best possible authority that it was Nolan himself (a huge fan of the film!) who suggested The Thin Red Line as an influence on the score.
This is where I totally disagree with your assessment... Historically speaking there was King Arthur, which didn't carry over anything from Bourne. Where's your argument?http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015
I do however agree that in terms of the ostinato-based action music the Bourne trilogy is the tent-pole, just so you know. The Batman influence was about something quite else, I'd say more about the relationship between orchestra and electronics than the ostinato itself.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015 edited
PawelStroinski wrote
But really, the burden of proof is on you in this case...
No, quite the contrary. The Bourne influence is an established factor of film music history, and my argument is that Zimmer is among those who were influenced. You claim this is not the case, so the burden is actually on you (and Scribe). And you've made some good counter-arguments. But then again, this isn't really about 'proof', but more about how we interpret and evaluate artistic expressions.
But if you want me to rephrase some of what I've already said, I can do so:
My argument is that Powell's riff influenced Zimmer's way of thinking - especially in dealing with contemporary action films. The power anthems was no longer the modus operandi as the action films themselves called for something different and less 'overt' (the colourful PIRATES movies are a late exception, as Zimmer himself said in Krakow). So for the BATMAN movies, DA VINCI CODE, FROST/NIXON etc. and other movies that are somewhat in the action/thriller genre, he thought more in terms of textures, repeating figures, ambiance. He replaced Powell's techno-influenced beats with deeper percussive and/or string riffs (timpanis, celli etc.), but kept the basic idea. And then he continued to develop this even further with INCEPTION, AMAZING SPIDERMAN 2 etc. Zimmer took Powell's idea and created "The Bourne Riff, Vol. 2", which in turn also became hugely influential.
For me, this is all part of an organic development, and much of it can be traced back to THE BOURNE IDENTITY, the "Ground Zero" of contemporary action films.
I'm glad we agree on the film and score's influence, even if we apparently disagree on the extent to which Zimmer and the BATMAN scores were influenced by it.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015 edited
NP: THE BLUE PLANET (George Fenton)
Just to be clear, I can keep the Bourne/Zimmer debate going forever, as I'm very passionate about film music history (both old and new), but I felt it was time for an NP. Hopefully, I'll be able to interview Fenton later this week, so I need to freshen up on my George.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015
That's annoying, I wrote a longer post, which didn't show up...http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentAuthorLars
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015
zimmer's music style for action films changed alot in the last 12-13 years. it started with Black Hawk Down. no power anthems anymore, only very simple motifs and textures and sound design for the action. King Arthur, Lone Ranger and the Pirates movies are really an exception, because those are bruckheimer movies. BHD is alo by bruckheimer, but because of ridley scott as another force behind the music decisions, its a bit different. but the Batman movies, Man Of Steel, Spider-Man 2, Rush and also Inception are very heavy on motifs, atmosphere and the use of electronics in the action parts. electronics combined with string and percussions rhythms were the new zimmer style in his action scores. i dont know if powell's bourne scores were the influence, but if yes, zimmer did it most of the time in a bad way.
NP: Home - Lorne Balfe
another powell influenced score, but lorne did a very good job on this score for an animation movie. he composed a very catchy main theme with alot versions throughout the score. also the theme and motifs for the emotional moments are fantastic. the music is a combination of big orchestra, electronics and guitars. a very good music, without sounding cheap. the style, especially in the action moments, sounds alot like john powell, but without sounding to bombastic. the 40 min digital album is alot fun to listen. a very nice surprise by lorne. -
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015
Lars wrote
King Arthur, Lone Ranger and the Pirates movies are really an exception, because those are bruckheimer movies.
Agreed. That's an important observation. At the time those movies came out, I doubt Zimmer would be doing his ol' 90s 'schtick' if it was anyone else but Bruckheimer at the helm.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015
This is the lost post.
Thor wrote
PawelStroinski wrote
But really, the burden of proof is on you in this case...
No, quite the contrary. The Bourne influence is an established factor of film music history, and my argument is that Zimmer is among those who were influenced. You claim this is not the case, so the burden is actually on you (and Scribe). And you've made some good counter-arguments. But then again, this isn't really about 'proof', but more about how we interpret and evaluate artistic expressions.
But if you want to me rephrase some of what I've already said, I can do so:
My argument is that Powell's riff influenced Zimmer's way of thinking somewhat - in dealing with contemporary action films. The power anthems was no longer the modus operandi as the action films themselves called for something different and less 'overt' (the colourful PIRATES movies are a late exception, as Zimmer himself said in Krakow). So for the BATMAN movies, DA VINCI CODE, FROST/NIXON etc. and other movies that are somewhat in the action/thriller genre, he thought more in terms of textures, repeating figures, ambiance. He replaced Powell's techno-influenced beats with deeper percussive and/or string riffs (timpanis etc.), but kept the basic idea. And then he continued to develop this even further with INCEPTION, AMAZING SPIDERMAN 2 etc. Zimmer took Powell's idea and created "The Bourne Riff, Vol. 2".
For me, this is all part of an organic development, and much of it can be traced back to THE BOURNE IDENTITY, the "Ground Zero" of contemporary action films.
I'm glad we agree on the film and score's influence, even if we apparently disagree to what extent Zimmer and the BATMAN scores were influenced, in particular.
I could agree that the way of thinking (as in "oh, you can do THAT") could have been influenced by Powell's thinking, though I'd take the risk and wonder if there wasn't some back and forth between the two of them in that regard. And the specifics where I would disagree with scores you mentioned are as such:
1. Frost/Nixon is a drama, not much of a thriller (bits of psychological thriller? a bit too much to consider it thus), but that's a minor nitpick. That score is though, I believe, more in vein of the classical minimalist tradition (with some tracks having a bit of a Philip Glass element to them) and outside of that the ostinati harken back at The Ring (the main Watergate theme) with its more syncopated and more violent solo cello approach. There is a Bourne-like development in Research Montage cue (though in a less overtly techno and more "modern pop" percussive environment).
2. Da Vinci Code is too much in the late Romantic/classical tradition (Górecki shows up as well!) for me to consider it an example of the post-Bourne action thriller sound. In fact I'd argue more that the action motif (I'm talking about Beneath Alrischa) is more Herrmannesque, however surprised Hans was when I pointed it out to him, than Bourne. And of course that ostinato leads directly to Chevaliers de Sangreal which I definitely count as an extension of what was being set up in King Arthur.
3. Inception, yet again, my claim is that this is where the only ostinato-based track in The Thin Red Line was much more important than the Bourne influence. And I told you the proof - and actually from what I know the quote Hans now attributes to Nolan (music as river) was actually said to him by Malick. Stone in My Heart was an attempt to use that approach in a single cue. So while I do agree that the Thin Red Line influence was something else than the "modern ostinato scoring", in this particular case.
There is a motif in TASM 2 which I would agree could have a Bourne influence. Also an argument for you is a little ostinato that actually begins the second Sherlock Holmes score. Now that I remember the bits that I do (sadly, that motif is left off the album completely), it is somewhat John Powell-like.
http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentTimeApr 13th 2015 edited
Well, I think you might be looking for the Bourne riff a little too literally, Pawel. I never said Zimmer copied the riff verbatim, like the aforementioned temp track love in Zanelli's HITMAN. My argument is that it changed his way of thinking about action film music. I think the Bourne influence might show up in your beloved KING ARTHUR first (when it isn't doing the 90s power anthem style). Also in THE LAST SAMURAI a little bit. Both of these have some of the turn-of-the-century Zimmer elements in them (BHD, GLADIATOR), and some of the post-BOURNE sound. But it only really becomes an evident change with the BATMAN scores and beyond.
I think it's a bit naïve or 'fanboyish' to suggest that Zimmer somehow lives in an ivory tower where he is immune to such influences -- especially when it's pretty close to his own stylings. Heck, one could argue that even John Williams was caught up in this 'general action ambiance of the early 2000s' even if he wasn't referencing it consciously or even being aware of it. At some point, it becomes so ingrained in the cultural awareness of a given period.
In any case, we REALLY, REALLY need to ask Zimmer this question at some point, and hope for an honest response. Just to settle this disagreement once and for all!I am extremely serious.