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[Closed] Now Playing - Part XIV
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- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Christodoulides wrote
Nautilus wrote
And then the coherency....From Hotls to Wagner to Morricone without any kind of measure.
I can't enter into a score wich goes to "progreny" to "the battle" to "patricice " to his more synthetized and tribal elmements realeased in "more Music from Gladiator" (Stuff who really seems from another movie )
Gladiator has more bonding musical elements than any other Zimmer work (except TTRL); they're everywhere in this, one of his most mature works to date. And I'd really like it if ONE came with any valid arguments whatsoever than the lame Holst and co plagiarism accusations; Like anyone bothers that a vast majority of both Summer's other works but also a large portion of the more general film music output also borrows heavily from the same (and not limited to) works as well.
To be fair D, the Holst allegations have been levelled at other composers as well ( Williams in Star Wars for example ), they all tend to be minor examples when compared to the scores as a whole but they are not "lame" accusations, the samples are there for everyone to hear, I could give tons of less obvious examples that many film composers have been using for years but in the end it doesn't really matter if you enjoy the music, however plagiarised it may be? I only have a problem when people deny it.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentAuthorNautilus
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Christodoulides wrote
Nautilus wrote
Christoph wrote
If you don't like Gladiator, you don't like zimmer. Zimmer is Gladiator. His whole style and passion for filmmusic is on that cd. He is never goin to reach that level of perfection again. But that's only my humble opinion.
I never said I don't like Gladiator.
I said it's not one of my favourite Zimmer scores. I like it, but it has a lot of weak parts.
And I prefer listen better works with the same ingredients.
Jordi,
Gladiator is Zimmer's most personal work in all levels, surely his most accomplished along with THE THIN RED LINE, something he won't ever surpass if you ask me;
POTC scores, no matter how good and enjoyable they are, are basically further developments of what Zimmer first established in GLADIATOR, a sound to which he always circled around, POTC scores included. Gladiator is more coherent, well-written and - at points, spectacular (the battle waltzes, am i not merciful) than any other work he has ever written (with the exception of THE THIN RED LINE) and everything else that followed was further ideas around that and (Good) recyclings.
You need to be a little more realistic when it comes to certain things, Gladiator is his most influential work to date and preceded all of his work that came after with Grandeur and musicianship he never managed to keep up to and i don't think many more will argue on the opposite.
God has spoke.
Oh...Do you mean is your opinion right??? Because in other way it can be pretensious.
Like in many other scores you are not unpartial. Gladiator, no matter how you like it, has a lot of mistakes and weak parts. And Im amazed how you try to make my opinion less valid, just because you think you are right.
Even with my "obssesions" and my "stupid" jokes I have heard scores from a lot , A LOT, of composers in the last 15 years. And I can make a very valid opinion about it.
Some points:
About some of posterior efforts from Zimmer are influenced by Gladiator...Yeap. It's called "Evolution".So Zimmer learned a lot with "the battle" and he evolutioned to things like "I don't thing now is the best time" where it's not just all the instruments played together based in a Demo.
The Holts thing: it's not Zimmer used the same languade in some stuff from gladiator. That's ok, because it fits very well. it's the mix of Holts, Wagner, Morricone, New Age....that's my Point.
Too much ideas in the same score.
Anyway, I find really disturbing when some people speaks how if they had the truth in his hands. For Raiders of the lost Ark ,Gladiator or whatever. What is ironic is then I'm the guy who make absolute statements....So I move on.
A War wich I can't win. in fact, I don't want go into.
NP: 3:10 to Yuma
One of the bests scores of the last year. IMHO. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Timmer wrote
Christodoulides wrote
Nautilus wrote
And then the coherency....From Hotls to Wagner to Morricone without any kind of measure.
I can't enter into a score wich goes to "progreny" to "the battle" to "patricice " to his more synthetized and tribal elmements realeased in "more Music from Gladiator" (Stuff who really seems from another movie )
Gladiator has more bonding musical elements than any other Zimmer work (except TTRL); they're everywhere in this, one of his most mature works to date. And I'd really like it if ONE came with any valid arguments whatsoever than the lame Holst and co plagiarism accusations; Like anyone bothers that a vast majority of both Summer's other works but also a large portion of the more general film music output also borrows heavily from the same (and not limited to) works as well.
To be fair D, the Holst allegations have been levelled at other composers as well ( Williams in Star Wars for example ), they all tend to be minor examples when compared to the scores as a whole but they are not "lame" accusations, the samples are there for everyone to hear, I could give tons of less obvious examples that many film composers have been using for years but in the end it doesn't really matter if you enjoy the music, however plagiarised it may be? I only have a problem when people deny it.
I don't deny it mate, it's pretty obvious. But it becomes lame when this is elevated to the sole basic argument as the whole film music genre is a mixture of various different musical styles, esp. the classical and the romantic era.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
Nautilus wrote
Anyway, I find really disturbing when some people speaks how if they had the truth in his hands. For Raiders of the lost Ark ,Gladiator or whatever. What is ironic is then I'm the guy who make absolute statements....So I move on.
Jordi, it's pretty ridiculous on itself when you go bananas over AWE, a score that recycles both the original POTC Material but also Gladiator (among other Zimmer works) and declare it as the single best work of the composer all these years. You constantly contradict your own self so please leave the preachings aside, you're the one who's kicking the validity of your own views with your unstable behavior all the time and rushed conclusions.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
OK... ummm... how to say it...
I agree with Jordi!
I do enjoy the Gladiator album.. but I'd take the final POTC album over it any day. It really is the ultimate example of Zimmer doing what he does best. The attempts to put the pop-symphonic style into a serious context just don't come off as well as putting them in a light-hearted one for me. I understand why people would prefer Gladiator, but I don't think it's a clear-cut thing. It's not like a Jerry Goldsmith fan dismissing Patton and proclaiming Criminal Law to be his best score. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
It might be more enjoyable in places indeed James, but i don't' see how a score that relies heavily on Gladiator and the sound that Zimmer established with Gladiator can be any better in essence (notice: not more enjoyable, but actually better as a musical work) than what's most probably one of the most influential modern film music works of the last 8-10 years or so.
And as for Jordi, i don't see how his said arguments can't loose their credibility when he launches epithets like "annoying" and "without any kind of Zimmer's personality" (just to mention a few) on a work that clearly set the modern Zimmer sound, a work that carries it signs withing each and every single composition by the composer since, AWE included.
I never said GLADIATOR is a masterpiece. Yes, it has flaws. But it surely is the one score that formed the very Zimmer sound in its current form that Jordi - and others - are celebrating today and definitely (as i said before) one of the most influential (doesn't always have to do with quality) modern film music examples.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
ALEXANDRE DESPLAT - Girl with a pearl earring
Such a beautiful, elegant and melodic listen. One of those rare scores to which you return after years without even loosing a single element of their charm.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
I too find much in what Jordi says.
I think the idea of Gladiator being influential is quite overrated: there's nothing there Zimmer didn't do ten years before (and better!:listen to Backdraft!).
The thing to me though is not the fact that there are seemingly derivative elements, but there there are literal quotes from Holst and Wagner.
Now we've discussed this to death over at The Other Forum, and I don't mind so much as it was evidently intended that way, but it sort of does negate any claims to originality the score might have. I don't think Zimmer actually established anything in this work.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Martijn wrote
I don't think Zimmer actually established anything in this work.
Only the dozens of clone-scores to date. Some of his works included.
Backdraft is no Gladiator (sound-wise). The peacemaker / THE ROCK pre-carry some elements later shown in Gladiator in most developed and established forms.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
Christodoulides wrote
ALEXANDRE DESPLAT - Girl with a pearl earring
Such a beautiful, elegant and melodic listen. One of those rare scores to which you return after years without even loosing a single element of their charm.
Interesting to hear now, the dark elements (that he always carried from his french filmography and which he later fully developed in BIRTH) in tracks like "Van Ruivjen". Desplat's easily one of the most gifted composers working in film music today.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Christodoulides wrote
Martijn wrote
I don't think Zimmer actually established anything in this work.
Only the dozens of clone-scores to date. Some of his works included.
But that only means that people wrote something Zimmerish afterwards (I guess you're refering to the "oriental" sound?). But that's a stylistic elemement! It doesn't speak to the inherent strength or compository valour of the score itself.
Backdraft is no Gladiator (sound-wise).
I think we may be talking cross-purposes here. I think Backdraft is VERY Gladiator-like!
There's the heavily deep-timpani-based action cues, the "power anthem" themes with the epic feel.
It lacks the more (melo)dramatic cues, sure, but how are these scores not comparable?
The peacemaker / THE ROCK pre-carry some elements later shown in Gladiator in most developed and established forms.
No argument from me.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
Mate, the ZIMMER in Gladiator sound as i mean it is blown to extremes in KING ARTHUR. Listen to those deep brass and 1000-people choir long chords and you'll know what i mean that Zimmer established that in GLADIATOR and that Backdraft is nothing like that.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
So you're talking about scale?'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
Why not?
Scale counts as well 'cause that, itself, is an ingredient that CAN define one's sound (see Wagner for example).
Furthermore, it's the exact choice of instrumentation, the very arrangements, the long chords, the (melo-as you said)dramatic style, the harsh brass, the full-blown synthetic enhancements of the orchestral / physical sound of the instruments.
There WERE early traces of that style before Gladiator of course but it was in it that Zimmer established that sound in its complete form. There are traces of it EVERYWHERE from that point onward, with KING ARTHUR as the direct example, the brass and action tracks of BATMAN BEGINS, the choir work in HANNIBAL and THE DA VINCI CODE, the entire score to Invincible (with Badelt - not to mention Badelt's and HGW scores (and not limited to those 2) that constantly rely on Gladiator), the triumphant grand themes and rhythms of Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron, the entire score to THE LAST SAMURAI and TEARS OF THE SUN and of course the POTC scores.
I am sure you are very able to distinguish the difference between Backdraft's refined nature and the broader sound in Gladiator.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
I think the most influential parts of Gladiator are the Lisa Gerrard bits - they're the only bits that have passed over into other (non-Zimmer) scores. The orchestral stuff just sounds like standard Zimmer to me, the sort of thing he's done since the early 90s, but with a much heavier influence from other composers than usual. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
Southall wrote
I think the most influential parts of Gladiator are the Lisa Gerrard bits - they're the only bits that have passed over into other (non-Zimmer) scores.
Allow me to disagree mate. What you say about Lisa Gerrard is valid of course but the orchestral / choral bits of Gladiator have also well passed onto stuff like HGW'S KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and METAL GEAR SOLID scores, BADELT'S INVINCIBLE and EQUILIBRIUM, JOHN DEBNEY'S PASSION OF THE CHRIST, BRIAN TYLER'S CHILDREN OF DUNE - just to name a few but also bits of DOYLE's work from the last 2-3 years or so and the vast majority of Video Game scores in general.
I won't even mention the dozens of RC clone scores or Tyler Bates' 300.
Plus the general notion after GLADIATOR that every epic war film should sound like GLADIATOR.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Christodoulides wrote
Why not?
Just asking
Furthermore, it's the exact choice of instrumentation, the very arrangements, the long chords, the (melo-as you said)dramatic style, the harsh brass, the full-blown synthetic enhancements of the orchestral / physical sound of the instruments.
Thanks for elaborating. I defer to your obviously better trained ear in this matter.
As for me, I do actually find a lot of similarity between (for example) Backdraft and Gladiator, but as it's both Zimmer, that only makes sense.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
No worries mate. I don't claim the unerring here but i always appreciate a healthy discussion with interactive arguments based on what the other party replies as well, like the ones above with you 2 fine gents, instead of blind-sided stubborn repetitions of the same arguments all over again.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Christodoulides wrote
the orchestral / choral bits of Gladiator have also well passed onto stuff like HGW'S KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and METAL GEAR SOLID scores, BADELT'S INVINCIBLE and EQUILIBRIUM, JOHN DEBNEY'S PASSION OF THE CHRIST, BRIAN TYLER'S CHILDREN OF DUNE - just to name a few but also bits of Doyle's work from the last 2-3 years or so and Game scores in general.
You make a compelling point.
Plus the general notion after GLADIATOR that every epic war film should sound like GLADIATOR.
Well, there haven't been that many epic war films.
None, in fact, I think, and when they are scores it's always with that same elegiac Band Of Brothers sound which is starting to seriously get on my tits (yeah yeah yeah, it's all terrible and horrible and very sad indeed. Yawn.)
However, I would support your case in the sense that we hear this sound in a lot of epic battle scenes in, generally, historic fantasy film.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
Southall wrote
I think the most influential parts of Gladiator are the Lisa Gerrard bits - they're the only bits that have passed over into other (non-Zimmer) scores. The orchestral stuff just sounds like standard Zimmer to me, the sort of thing he's done since the early 90s, but with a much heavier influence from other composers than usual.
And even that wasn't exactly original... I reckon Ridley and his editor got a gander at THE INSIDER (because Russell Crowe would have had it early) and decided to call on the same magic with Lisa Gerrard.
The duduk is probably Peter Gabriel influence - LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST paying off.
And I remember at the time a few people kept saying the Morocco sections of GLADIATOR were pretty closely re-treading PRINCE OF EGYPT. And they're not wrong about a lot of that, which is why there's almost none of it on the original album (or the second album).
Do I enjoy it? Sure. (Mixed a bit low in the film.) But I'll never hold it up for its musicianship or its storytelling power if ever I'm asked.
So yeah, me with Jordi too.
NP: Rebecca (Waxman)
Ah, musicianship and storytelling power!A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Martijn wrote
Christodoulides wrote
the orchestral / choral bits of Gladiator have also well passed onto stuff like HGW'S KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and METAL GEAR SOLID scores, BADELT'S INVINCIBLE and EQUILIBRIUM, JOHN DEBNEY'S PASSION OF THE CHRIST, BRIAN TYLER'S CHILDREN OF DUNE - just to name a few but also bits of Doyle's work from the last 2-3 years or so and Game scores in general.
You make a compelling point.
But Badelt was a co-composer on GLADIATOR. I would hope it sounds a bit like him. His name is on cue sheets.
You've got us on Brian Tyler's score though. He says he never heard it, but I don't entirely buy that.
Plus the general notion after GLADIATOR that every epic war film should sound like GLADIATOR.
Well, there haven't been that many epic war films.
And if you count things like MASTER AND COMMANDER... there's even fewer carry-overs.
There was one that sounded a bit like GLADIATOR. It was called THE LAST SAMURAI. I can't remember who wrote the music for that one but it sounded like GLADIATOR with shakuhatchis.
However, I would support your case in the sense that we hear this sound in a lot of epic battle scenes in, generally, historic fantasy film.
Like ERAGON, CHRONICLES OF NARNIA, LORD OF THE RINGS, GOLDEN COMPASS, MATRIX REVOLUTIONS... ?
A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Like those.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
franz_conrad wrote
GLADIATOR with shakuhatchis.
GOTTA have been Horner!'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorNautilus
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
edit -
- CommentAuthorNautilus
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008 edited
Christodoulides wrote
No worries mate. I don't claim the unerring here but i always appreciate a healthy discussion with interactive arguments based on what the other party replies as well, like the ones above with you 2 fine gents, instead of blind-sided stubborn repetitions of the same arguments all over again.
Thanks. I guess it was for me.
(So James and Martijn got some good arguments from my posts, But you don't. So What? they are happy with more mediocre arguments than you? or perhaps you prejudje my arguments just because they are comming from me? )
Im starting to get angry, So I leave this conversation here.
How I did in the past ...From Die hard 4 to the simpsons to AVP2 to Kung Fu PAnda.
Oh Demetris, I don't find your actitud when you try to defend your "loved" scores "healthy".
I move on. -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Nautilus wrote
Im starting to get angry, So I leave this conversation here.
Is this... the end?
Don't get your knickers in a twist, Jordi.
You make some good point, and so does Demetris.
It's pretty clear to me that you judge the material on different grounds.
As far as scale, technicalities and approach is concerned, I'm with Demetris.
As far as -if I may borrow Franz' phrases- musicianship and storytelling power is concerned, I can see your point.
After all, many of the truths we kling to, depend greatly on our point of view.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
We won't like it when Jordi gets angry. The Hulk is rough enough as a native English speaker.
A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
Don't make fun of the Spaniard. You may be in for an unexpected surprise.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
NP:Black- Michael Giacchino and Chris Tilton
A great video game score again! I'm listening to Trenseka Border Crossing right now... how amazingly they combined the main theme with suspenseful spiccato strings!! Other great tracks are A Bridge Too Close, Gulag Gauntlet, Sniper Alley and Minefield. Lovin' it, man!
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- CommentAuthorNautilus
- CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
