Categories
Vanilla 1.1.4 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.
The Dark Knight - Hans Zimmer & James Newton Howard
-
- CommentAuthorNautilus
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
Erik Woods wrote
It just that I find that a great symphonic piece, performed by real players, written by a composer who truly understands purely symphonic writing beats the pants off any synthetic, simplistic Zimmer approach.
-Erik-
I understand you , Erik. In fact I blame Zimmer for things like producers decided to hire a Zimmer underling only because it's from Zimmer factory and he composed a mediocre theme for a succeful (in his first season) tv show. And a lot of cases like that....
But for me, Zimmer is Zimmer. It's him, not his factory.
Being sad that, I understand what you say Zimmer's simplistic approach, I love ZImmer, but how much I grow less I enjoy some of his scores.but Do you know why i love Zimmer??? because he touches my soul with his music , he is crazy and he is a cool guy.
Example: "LIke a Dog chasing cars": it's just 5 minutes of strings , percusion and some typical Zimmer heroic theme, but it make me want to got a Bat-bike and kill joker. -
- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
Nautilus wrote
but Do you know why i love Zimmer??? because he touches my soul with his music , he is crazy and he is a cool guy.
-
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
Nautilus wrote
Being sad that, I understand what you say Zimmer's simplistic approach, I love ZImmer, but how much I grow less I enjoy some of his scores.but Do you know why i love Zimmer??? because he touches my soul with his music , he is crazy and he is a cool guy.
Don't ever let anyone touch you where you don't want them to.
A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
Thomas wrote
Timmer wrote
Cripes! Am I missing something or did the likes of Williams, Goldsmith, Barry, Bernstein etc etc need such an army for a single score?
Please enlighten??
I doubt that John Williams performs 80 instruments at the same time, records and engineers the score, programs and performs the synths, masters the album, designs the cover art...
No shit Sherlock
I never remember John Williams needing 3 different conductors and a large amount of orchestraters.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
Timmer wrote
I never remember John Williams needing 3 different conductors and a large amount of orchestraters.
Since Zimmer's scores are usually recorded in sections, some conductor that uses on one session might not be available for the next one... What's so hard to understand?
In regard to orchestrators, the more orchestrators, the faster it would be to output the file to the copyists.
Beside, just because John Williams credits only one or two, doesn't mean that there aren't more uncredited writers/orchestrators. -
- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
lp wrote
Beside, just because John Williams credits only one or two, doesn't mean that there aren't more uncredited writers/orchestrators.
Apples and Oranges. Williams sketches are so detailed that he only needs one orchestrator to "clean things up." Sure, when he does have additional writers - Jedi and E.T. - he sadly doesn't credit them. Why, I have no idea. Also, I wish he would credit Conrad Pope as orchestrator on his albums. Anyway, Williams and Zimmer are two so very different composers. Zimmer needs an army to create "his" scores while Williams can easily do it himself with one other orchestrator.
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS! -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2008
I think the key difference is Williams needs orchestrators because there just isn't time for him to do everything himself, and not because he is unable to do those things. Personally I don't have a large problem with a large number of orchestrators and conductors - it's the product that comes out at the end I'm interested in rather than how it was done - but I do think it becomes harder for a composer to really put his mark on a piece of music if he has so much help, and maybe that's why Williams's music touches my soul, to use Jordi's phrase, and Zimmer's - even at his very best - doesn't. -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Hey, even if Williams does rely on an army of orchestrators and doesn't write a bar himself, he obviously hired much better orchestrators if the results are any judge...A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
I just watched Reign Of Fire and I was thinking this score would be great in Batman Begins and it would still remain within the confounds of Nolan's vision.
'Meet Van Zan' would be a great theme for Batman without being an 'overstatement of superhero proportions'. This is the kind of score Batman Begins deserved, and it proves great film music can still be achieved with this kind of approach (similiar to Batman Begins).
Makes me wish that Shearmur or Goldenthal or indeed both had gotten the gig since they "needed" two composers in the first place... my god, they would have knocked that one out of the park. (And at the very least it would have been interesting since Goldenthal had scored the previous two Batman flms.)
I feel sad now... I think I'll listen to Reign Of Fire to cheer me up. (Never thought I'd be saying that!) -
- CommentAuthorLSH
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Steven wrote
I just watched Reign Of Fire and I was thinking this score would be great in Batman Begins
My God, you're right! I'll apologise immediately for the weather comments and congratulate you on this fantastic observation. Gonna give this a spin too...
-
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Steven made some very valid points with the REIGN OF FIRE. Here's another awesomely gifted composer who should be getting the big gigs.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorMatt C
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Steven wrote
I just watched Reign Of Fire and I was thinking this score would be great in Batman Begins and it would still remain within the confounds of Nolan's vision.
Ooh, I like how you think. Not to mention that film also has Bale as a leading actor too...http://unsungfilmscores.blogspot.com/ -- My film/TV/game score review blog -
- CommentAuthorDavid
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
I'm a bit late, but I just finished a second listen of The Dark Knight and don't think I'll be revisiting it anytime soon. I enjoyed Batman Begins, but this new one isn't doing much for me. Considering how much Zimmer and JNH were talking it up, I had expected something much more. Some of the reworking of the older material and the fact that it's a bit more orchestral than before is nice, but for the most part it's pretty bland. Even the theme for Harvey Dent is lacking.
On album, "Why So Serious?" is an utter failure. It's long, muddled, uninspiring, and is just about as bad as it sounds in Zimmer's original description. To be honest, it sounds very reminiscent of some of the material in Michael Clayton.
The score might work really well in the film, but if I want a modern Batman score, I'll stick with Batman Begins. -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Erik Woods wrote
Zimmer needs an army to create "his" scores while Williams can easily create "his" scores himself with one other orchestrator.
-Erik-
There, I made the comparison more apples and orange like. Thanks for showing me your biased opinion. -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Southall wrote
Personally I don't have a large problem with a large number of orchestrators and conductors - it's the product that comes out at the end I'm interested in rather than how it was done - but I do think it becomes harder for a composer to really put his mark on a piece of music if he has so much help, and maybe that's why Williams's music touches my soul, to use Jordi's phrase, and Zimmer's - even at his very best - doesn't.
Hans' orchestrators doesn't do more than make sure that the midi parts are playable and makes sense. Even if they have to add a trombone line to reinforce the cue, that's part of their job and most composers would need them for that. True, the final product is what matter, but who are you to say that Hans Zimmer or James Howard doesn't have their stamp on the score.
Honestly, all this BS about soul touching music is just dress ups about whether a style of music appeals to you on a level above functionality. John Williams music and most thing orchestral will touch your soul more than Hans Zimmer's stuff will.
I think it's sad that you guys keep yapping on about the same point just to waste space. In general, you guys don't like Hans Zimmer's work. Is it really a discussion anymore when there's nothing more to add? There might be a few score that you like, but in general, you guys would have anyone but Hans and his people score movies. So why don't you guys just move on and be done with it. State your opinions about the scores, which you've already made sure everyone knew about it, and move on to other scores that get your boners hard. -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
David wrote
On album, "Why So Serious?" is an utter failure. It's long, muddled, uninspiring, and is just about as bad as it sounds in Zimmer's original description. To be honest, it sounds very reminiscent of some of the material in Michael Clayton.
Interesting observation about Michael Clayton. I don't hear it. I do hear a lot of NIN-style dissonance and textural ideas. Michael Clayton sounded more electronica in comparison. Can you clarify why it's "muddled" and "uninspiring"? -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Steven wrote
I just watched Reign Of Fire and I was thinking this score would be great in Batman Begins and it would still remain within the confounds of Nolan's vision.
'Meet Van Zan' would be a great theme for Batman without being an 'overstatement of superhero proportions'. This is the kind of score Batman Begins deserved, and it proves great film music can still be achieved with this kind of approach (similiar to Batman Begins).
Makes me wish that Shearmur or Goldenthal or indeed both had gotten the gig since they "needed" two composers in the first place... my god, they would have knocked that one out of the park. (And at the very least it would have been interesting since Goldenthal had scored the previous two Batman flms.)
I feel sad now... I think I'll listen to Reign Of Fire to cheer me up. (Never thought I'd be saying that!)
I do love that track from Reign of Fire. It's also the only track that I really like on the whole album. The initial brass statement is impressive, but the latter development gets too militaristic for my liking and doesn't really resolve itself. The Bat theme in Molossus has a same approach but doesn't over do it with unnecessary flourishes. I'll chalk it up to the cue sound more orchestral than Hans' version.
Shearmur's an interesting choice, but his bod of work failed to provide any interesting to me other than remind me of temp tracks and of his association with Michael Kamen.
And Goldenthal killed his chance at any future Batman work with his overblown scores for both Batman Forever and Batman & Robin. Not his fault, I think, but his judging by his previous work, I don't expect that he'll bring anything great to the table. -
- CommentAuthorThomas
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
The orchestrator thing is easy to discuss: Listen to The Gladiator Waltz and compare this to the final version on the soundtrack. If you think that the orchestrators have a too big involvement than you can complain further, if not then we can end this discusion. -
- CommentAuthorMarselus
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
lp wrote
There might be a few score that you like, but in general, you guys would have anyone but Hans and his people score movies. So why don't you guys just move on and be done with it. State your opinions about the scores, which you've already made sure everyone knew about it, and move on to other scores that get your boners hard.
Totally agree! But I´m afraid every new work by Zimmer will reopen this endless debate. Everytime more boring though.Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
lp wrote
And Goldenthal killed his chance at any future Batman work with his overblown scores for both Batman Forever and Batman & Robin. Not his fault, I think, but his judging by his previous work, I don't expect that he'll bring anything great to the table.
Really? Mate, very few people would ever be able to compose something in the level of FINAL FANTASY: the spirits within or his concert works.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0. -
- CommentAuthorMarselus
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Steven wrote
lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0.
Don´t agree. lp elaborates his posts (you may agree or not) while Justin 1.0 simply throws an insult and disappears.Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Marselus wrote
Steven wrote
lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0.
Don´t agree. lp elaborates his posts (you may agree or not) while Justin 1.0 simply throws an insult and disappears.
That's why I said 2.0. At least an improvement on the original.
-
- CommentAuthorMarselus
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Steven wrote
Marselus wrote
Steven wrote
lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0.
Don´t agree. lp elaborates his posts (you may agree or not) while Justin 1.0 simply throws an insult and disappears.
That's why I said 2.0. At least an improvement on the original.
Haha, touché!Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
Steven wrote
lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0.
Good observation.
Seems like some people will never accept the most obvious, i.e. what's already being said about DARK KNIGHT from most people who have given it a spin already; that despite having a bit more orchestral nature and a couple of denser arrangements with a couple of interesting cues, it's essentially complete blatant drone.
And the most disappointing fact is that's it's coming from JAMES NEWTON HOWARD and HANS ZIMMER FOR GOD'S SAKE! What's wrong with you people? It's one thing to like a composer but a wholly different thing to close your ears completely and focus into parading against anyone who states the obvious instead!
AS for negatively judging the alternative composer suggestions, especially when we talk about composers of the magnitude of Elliot Goldenthal, since you DO KNOW - even if you don't want to admit it, that they would deliver much more interesting scores, that proves the point i make about your irreversible stubbornness.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorBobdH
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
And the most disappointing fact is that's it's coming from JAMES NEWTON HOWARD and HANS ZIMMER FOR GOD'S SAKE! What's wrong with you people? It's one thing to like a composer but a wholly different thing to close your ears completely and focus into parading against anyone who states the obvious instead!
Well, this is something I've come to dislike. I haven't heard the score yet, but you're basically stating here that it's a fact that it's rubbish and people who don't like it are morons who don't have an opinion of their own and as such don't know what they're talking about because you think it's rubbish, and as such, it is rubbish. I don't really think I'll state my opinions on this score on this board now because, what's the point?
There's no other opinion possible then 'it's bland'? Please, keep in mind that it's just your opinion, no matter how much you probably 'know' about it. You don't know what other people's standards are motivations are. -
- CommentAuthorMarselus
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
Christodoulides wrote
Steven wrote
lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0.
Good observation. Seems like some people will never accept the most obvious, i.e. what's already being said about DARK KNIGHT despite having a bit more orchestral nature and a couple of denser arrangements, it's essentially blatant drone. And the most disappointing fact is that's it's coming from JAMES NEWTON HOWARD and HANS ZIMMER FOR GOD'S SAKE! What's wrong with you people? It's one thing to like a composer but a wholly different thing to close your ears and focus into parading against anyone who states the obvious!
While I TOTALLY agree on The Dark Knight thing (as I´ve said, a couple of new arrangements and a sound a little bit more orchestral isn´t enough) the truth is that criticisms are always harsher with certain composers (specyally Zimmer). Not even Horner generates so many heavy criticism. It´s always the same, not only critics to the music itself (that in the case of TDK I insist is more than deserved) but to the man (which, as far as I know, nobody here knows personally). All this "I don´t like the way the industry is going", "I don´t like he way film scoring is going", etc is PURE BULLSHIT. You don´t have to go very far to find music that can fit your tastes. I´ve always found funny (and kinda pathetic) this feeling of "old times were better". You don´t like Zimmer and his way of scoring? Ok, there´s Rombi, Desplat, Giacchino, Goldenthal, etc.... As for me, I´ll keep enjoying them all.Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
At the very least, I think it's created a fascinating discussion about the state of modern film music. A lot are probably bored with reading about Zimmer, JNH and their Batman scores. I am too to a degree, but it does give us a chance to ponder on what we think film music should sound like which is a very interesting part of the discussion.
But when people get defensive and bitchy, it brings a downer on the whole discussion. We're just here to talk about film music, not kill each other!
-
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
BobdH wrote
And the most disappointing fact is that's it's coming from JAMES NEWTON HOWARD and HANS ZIMMER FOR GOD'S SAKE! What's wrong with you people? It's one thing to like a composer but a wholly different thing to close your ears completely and focus into parading against anyone who states the obvious instead!
Well, this is something I've come to dislike. I haven't heard the score yet, but you're basically stating here that it's a fact that it's rubbish and people who don't like it are morons who don't have an opinion of their own and as such don't know what they're talking about because you think it's rubbish, and as such, it is rubbish. I don't really think I'll state my opinions on this score on this board now because, what's the point?
There's no other opinion possible then 'it's bland'? Please, keep in mind that it's just your opinion, no matter how much you probably 'know' about it. You don't know what other people's standards are motivations are.
Is it coming from 2 of the most prestigious, well-known, well-paid Hollywood composers today, yes or no? Is the score - no matter how some might like it - much lower than what they CAN and HAVE done in the past, yes or no? That's what i am asking. You know what the saddest point of them all is? That there are people who get tossed for exactly the same kind of music just because they aren't lucky enough to carry the afore-mentioned names.
Furthermore, what i don't like is the hostility some people showcase against anyone who dares states a negative opinion against Zimmer's work. I love Zimmer works and i've been a member of the hans-zimmer.com team for ages, i even worked for and met the man in Soncinemad I, 2006, Madrid for God's sake but that won't make me completely blind-eared and opinion-less when it comes to his music; nor will i accept direct and automatic hostility and 'shut up, you're a zimmer basher'-isms from others without considering my (and others') arguments first.
IT seems that anti-zimmer bashing is the new trend now.Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorRalph Kruhm
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
Well, I think the point is that the score is done. You may like it or hate it, but there is nothing to be done about it. We can endlessly debate whether or not another composer would have come up with something better or not, but in the end, producers and directors won´t listen to our complaints.
So all this discussion is achieving is heighten the frustration of the haters and alienating those who actually like what they are hearing. And if that´s what they do, you can´t do anything about it. As I´ve tried to say again and again, I feel like being blamed for liking this stuff. There is no explanation (needed), I just like it. And nothing you guys are gonna say will change that. It will just add more and more to the feeling of being flogged to death because of taste, and that sucks like hell.
So I totally understand why people like lp get more and more angry about this negative stuff. Instead of saying "it´s bad" and going away, people return again and again saying how bad it is. That´s what our complaints are about. The absolute disability to just let it go, to ignore this topic and leave it to those who like what they hear.
I mean the discussion about what other composers would have done was okay for a few days, but now it drags along as every other aspect does since aeons ago.
The point is you just can´t discuss what you like if every sentence you write is answered by an army of people who try to explain to you why it´s bad music. And after a while, you just give up.