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The Dark Knight - Hans Zimmer & James Newton Howard

General Discussions » The Dark Knight - Hans Zimmer & James Newton Howard (Posts 421 to 450 of 1203)

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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
    Marselus wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Steven wrote
    lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0.


    Good observation. Seems like some people will never accept the most obvious, i.e. what's already being said about DARK KNIGHT despite having a bit more orchestral nature and a couple of denser arrangements, it's essentially blatant drone. And the most disappointing fact is that's it's coming from JAMES NEWTON HOWARD and HANS ZIMMER FOR GOD'S SAKE! What's wrong with you people? It's one thing to like a composer but a wholly different thing to close your ears and focus into parading against anyone who states the obvious!

    While I TOTALLY agree on The Dark Knight thing (as I´ve said, a couple of new arrangements and a sound a little bit more orchestral isn´t enough) the truth is that criticisms are always harsher with certain composers (specyally Zimmer). Not even Horner generates so many heavy criticism. It´s always the same, not only critics to the music itself (that in the case of TDK I insist is more than deserved) but to the man (which, as far as I know, nobody here knows personally). All this "I don´t like the way the industry is going", "I don´t like he way film scoring is going", etc is PURE BULLSHIT. You don´t have to go very far to find music that can fit your tastes. I´ve always found funny (and kinda pathetic) this feeling of "old times were better". You don´t like Zimmer and his way of scoring? Ok, there´s Rombi, Desplat, Giacchino, Goldenthal, etc.... As for me, I´ll keep enjoying them all.


    Where have i stated something like thaT? Unless you're talking generally and / or about the general opinion as you realize it to be. I am one of the people who support that modern film music has a lot to showcase and in fact a lot of gems get out frequently.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    Marselus wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Steven wrote
    lp, what's with hostility all the time? You're like a Justin 2.0.


    Good observation. Seems like some people will never accept the most obvious, i.e. what's already being said about DARK KNIGHT despite having a bit more orchestral nature and a couple of denser arrangements, it's essentially blatant drone. And the most disappointing fact is that's it's coming from JAMES NEWTON HOWARD and HANS ZIMMER FOR GOD'S SAKE! What's wrong with you people? It's one thing to like a composer but a wholly different thing to close your ears and focus into parading against anyone who states the obvious!

    While I TOTALLY agree on The Dark Knight thing (as I´ve said, a couple of new arrangements and a sound a little bit more orchestral isn´t enough) the truth is that criticisms are always harsher with certain composers (specyally Zimmer). Not even Horner generates so many heavy criticism. It´s always the same, not only critics to the music itself (that in the case of TDK I insist is more than deserved) but to the man (which, as far as I know, nobody here knows personally). All this "I don´t like the way the industry is going", "I don´t like he way film scoring is going", etc is PURE BULLSHIT. You don´t have to go very far to find music that can fit your tastes. I´ve always found funny (and kinda pathetic) this feeling of "old times were better". You don´t like Zimmer and his way of scoring? Ok, there´s Rombi, Desplat, Giacchino, Goldenthal, etc.... As for me, I´ll keep enjoying them all.


    Where have i stated something like thaT? Unless you're talking generally and / or about the general opinion as you realize it to be. I am one of the people who support that modern film music has a lot to showcase and in fact a lot of gems get out frequently.

    Oh it wasn´t a direct reply to you Demetris but in general, sorry if I took your post to elaborate my argument. The thing is I´ve started talking about TDK and I´ve gone to another issue that has been around for the last few days wink
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Ralph Kruhm wrote


    So all this discussion is achieving is heighten the frustration of the haters and alienating those who actually like what they are hearing. And if that´s what they do, you can´t do anything about it. As I´ve tried to say again and again, I feel like being blamed for liking this stuff. There is no explanation (needed), I just like it. And nothing you guys are gonna say will change that. It will just add more and more to the feeling of being flogged to death because of taste, and that sucks like hell.

    So I totally understand why people like lp get more and more angry about this negative stuff. Instead of saying "it´s bad" and going away, people return again and again saying how bad it is. That´s what our complaints are about. The absolute disability to just let it go, to ignore this topic and leave it to those who like what they hear.



    Ralph my friend, it's discussion. It's a forum where people debate. I don't see how repeating or expanding on some arguments, no matter what these might be, can in fact deviate from what such a forum's essence is.

    Nobody is blaming anyone for his / her tastes; what i don't like is real and / or pretended hostility on behalf of some members who feel like being attacked all the time while in reality nobody is talking in a bad manner to them.

    Relax, consider others' arguments for a second, don't take it personally. Our subject is the score and not you and / or your personal tastes on music. Don't get pissy, don't get insulted and don't start attacking people 'cause that is what you're going to get reflected in return.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  4. Christodoulides wrote
    Is the score - no matter how some might like it - much lower than what they CAN and HAVE done in the past, yes or no?

    Can´t you see what you just said? No matter how some might like it. So that doesn´t count anymore? Do we have to explain our taste? Do we have to measure up which feelings the score might evoke in us?

    And what exactly do you mean by lower? If you mean good or bad, my answer is a definite NO! So now what?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Marselus wrote
    Oh it wasn´t a direct reply to you Demetris but in general, sorry if I took your post to elaborate my argument. The thing is I´ve started talking about TDK and I´ve gone to another issue that has been around for the last few days wink


    No worries mate. I completely agree on what you say too anyway, i am against the notion that film music is ruined 'cause of Zimmer and i wholly agree on what you say. My points are for TDK ALONE and not extended to any catastrophic theories about the fate of the world wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBobdH
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
    Demetris, my point was that, whatever your background on hans-zimmer.com may be, the by me highlighted comment of yours made me feel like...

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    As I´ve tried to say again and again, I feel like being blamed for liking this stuff.


    If I hear this score in the near future (as soon as I've purchased my copy), and I turn out to like it, would I say that on the board? I probably won't since, well, I'm probably not listening 'right', whatever my arguments might be? It's the other side of the Transformers discussion, where was being stated (as if it were a fact) that the score was fun, despite being totally unoriginal and without being able to give arguments other than abstract reasons. Isn't it possible that this score is just that?

    If you take it from your quote, there's no reason to further go into this discussion. It is ended.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    The absolute disability to just let it go, to ignore this topic and leave it to those who like what they hear.


    Don't you think that's a little hypocritical since you've added quite a lot to this discussion anyway? Takes two to tango! wink

    I think all of us in this thread find it hard to shut up about it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Is the score - no matter how some might like it - much lower than what they CAN and HAVE done in the past, yes or no?

    Can´t you see what you just said? No matter how some might like it. So that doesn´t count anymore? Do we have to explain our taste? Do we have to measure up which feelings the score might evoke in us?

    And what exactly do you mean by lower? If you mean good or bad, my answer is a definite NO! So now what?


    Besides musical tastes (and this is where the - no matter how some might like it - comment stands in) there ARE valid musicological terms in which a musical work can be approached in terms of work being done, variety, arrangements, melodic development and procession, orchestration, complexity and overall quality and YES, TDK is far simpler, undeveloped and uninteresting to many of the 2 composers' greater works and please don't make me start comparing it with Gladiator / The thin Red Line / Da Vinci Code / The JNH Shyamalan works or MANY other works from his career 'cause it is going to get ridiculous. The difference is obvious.

    AGAIN, like the Erik discussions, you're taking the subject personally. A score / musical work exists and has its own traits and qualities (or not) no matter how you or me or anyone like or dislike it. What's so difficult to understand? I am talking about TDK in particular and not you mate, relax wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  9. Demetris, that´s the problem. The moment you say a score is bad, you say something about the people who like it, whether you want to or not. That´s the problem. I certainly don´t take anything you said personally, I never would, but in the end what you guys do is ruining the experience for guys like us. We do not want to discuss how bad the score is, we - who like it - want to discuss about what we like. I can´t see why you guys insist on seeking a solution for a problem you can´t solve.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    My points are for TDK ALONE and not extended to any catastrophic theories about the fate of the world wink

    Indeed. The thing is that judging for some posts of the last days it seems that film music as we know it is about to die, and we are talking about TDK!
    That´s why I understand Ralph´s or lp´s reactions, because is really amazing how a work by a composer (it´s two indeed, but curiously only Zimmer is mentioned in the criticisms most of the times) can generate such a debate (interesting though), which goes beyond the score itself.
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    BobdH wrote
    Demetris, my point was that, whatever your background on hans-zimmer.com may be, the by me highlighted comment of yours made me feel like...

    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    As I´ve tried to say again and again, I feel like being blamed for liking this stuff.


    If I hear this score in the near future (as soon as I've purchased my copy), and I turn out to like it, would I say that on the board? I probably won't since, well, I'm probably not listening 'right', whatever my arguments might be? It's the other side of the Transformers discussion, where was being stated (as if it were a fact) that the score was fun, despite being totally unoriginal and without being able to give arguments other than abstract reasons. Isn't it possible that this score is just that?

    If you take it from your quote, there's no reason to further go into this discussion. It is ended.


    I didn't say anyone to NOT LIKE THE SCORE, i apologize if it seemed like it.

    What i said is STOP ATTACKING ANYONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE TDK JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK THEY DON'T LIKE YOU.

    There's a whole difference to me blaming you or anyone else who likes the score with what i really object to. Stop, take a breath, relax and think about what i am saying to you instead of repeating the same "you are attacking me and blaming me for liking it" arguments all over again, to which i've already answered specifically several times in the last half an hour.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Demetris, that´s the problem. The moment you say a score is bad, you say something about the people who like it, whether you want to or not. That´s the problem. I certainly don´t take anything you said personally, I never would, but in the end what you guys do is ruining the experience for guys like us. We do not want to discuss how bad the score is, we - who like it - want to discuss about what we like. I can´t see why you guys insist on seeking a solution for a problem you can´t solve.


    Well i am more than eager to hear your arguments on why the score IS good for you, instead of 'stop attacking me' arguments you present all the time. I REALLY am and i'd then consider the debate a far more interesting and healthier one, if you really tried to present your arguments and back them up instead of constantly running for cover and making me (us) feeling like the most evil guys around wink
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  13. Christodoulides wrote
    Well i am more than eager to hear your arguments on why the score IS good for you, instead of 'stop attacking me' arguments you present all the time. I REALLY am and i'd then consider the debate a far more interesting and healthier one, if you really tried to present your arguments and back them up instead of constantly running for cover and making me (us) feeling like the most evil guys around wink

    Well, okay then... first of all (and this might be the most personal reason) I like it when I get more of the same stuff I already liked. I think BB established some themes and style that I like very much (I hope I don´t have to explain that, too), and I use that stuff in my roleplaying game sessions again and again, so getting more of it widens the palet of cues I can chose from for a specific scene.

    Second, I really feel TDK not only adds more of the old stuff, but, at places, gives it a somewhat bigger feeling, for example what they did with that very nice theme in Harvey Twoface or the action stuff in Like Dogs chasing cars. It just feels bigger to me.

    Third, I think part of the problem is that I really, really liked BB in the beginning and that I gave it a massive amount of listenings. So I daresay that I know it quite well, and just getting new stuff that fits into the same fold is exciting for me.

    I´m afraid, though, that I can´t tell you anything about the technical aspects. I have no musically themed education, so all I have is my taste. There you are.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    That's better, isn't it? wink

    Which one do you think is the best of the 2 scores? And what's your opinion on "why so serious"
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    TDK is far simpler, undeveloped and uninteresting to many of the 2 composers' greater works and please don't make me start comparing it with Gladiator / The thin Red Line / Da Vinci Code / The JNH Shyamalan works or MANY other works from his career 'cause it is going to get ridiculous. The difference is obvious.


    You know, now that I've listened to the score quite some times and mulled over it, I think you're quite right. I kinda don't agree about the underdeveloped and uiniteresting part because IMHO the themes were much better developed than BB and also I didn't find myself losing much interest at any point listening to it (just my opinion), but I did notice that a lot of portions of the score were made up of synth pads and electronics that probably could've been developed much better. Considering how adept Zimmer and JNH are with developing suspense stuff, I felt they could've done much better. Dont get me wrong, I like the score a LOT, I just feel it could've been much better when I think about the duo's other works.

    Nevertheless, tracks like I'm Not A Hero, Like A Dog Chasing Cars, Harvey Two-Face and A Dark Knight are just terrific and are gonna remain my some of my top JNH-Zimmer tracks of the year smile And Why So Serious, when you think of the Joker's character and think about him, is very nicely fitting IMHO. It gave me goosebumps!! shocked It is not a good standalone track, but very good for the Joker (seeing he's been one of my favourite Batman villains since childhood biggrin)

    My rating of the whole score is 3.5 out of 5.
  16. I think BB is good for creating that specific kind of music or atmosphere for Nolan´s Batman, and TDK is good for expanding on that. I doubt I am able to judge TDK against BB after such a short time and so few listenings compared to BB, but what I can say is that for me it is certainly not a disappointment. In the end it will be included into the Batman playlist and will get the very same amount of listenings like the first one, that´s all i can say for now.

    Why so serious is certainly not a nice track to listen to as a stand alone, but I think the very same about most of Williams´ War of the Worlds. I think it will have its intended effect within the movie, and I´m sure there are a couple of gaming scenes I can use it for, but beside that, it´s certainly not a nice experience and less interesting to listen to than other tracks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    DemonStar wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    TDK is far simpler, undeveloped and uninteresting to many of the 2 composers' greater works and please don't make me start comparing it with Gladiator / The thin Red Line / Da Vinci Code / The JNH Shyamalan works or MANY other works from his career 'cause it is going to get ridiculous. The difference is obvious.


    You know, now that I've listened to the score quite some times and mulled over it, I think you're quite right. I kinda don't agree about the underdeveloped and uiniteresting part because IMHO the themes were much better developed than BB and also I didn't find myself losing much interest at any point listening to it (just my opinion), but I did notice that a lot of portions of the score were made up of synth pads and electronics that probably could've been developed much better. Considering how adept Zimmer and JNH are with developing suspense stuff, I felt they could've done much better. Dont get me wrong, I like the score a LOT, I just feel it could've been much better when I think about the duo's other works.

    Nevertheless, tracks like I'm Not A Hero, Like A Dog Chasing Cars, Harvey Two-Face and A Dark Knight are just terrific and are gonna remain my some of my top JNH-Zimmer tracks of the year smile And Why So Serious, when you think of the Joker's character and think about him, is very nicely fitting IMHO. It gave me goosebumps!! shocked It is not a good standalone track, but very good for the Joker (seeing he's been one of my favourite Batman villains since childhood biggrin)

    My rating of the whole score is 3.5 out of 5.


    Agree what all you said above.

    It doesn't have the great dramatic trakcs like "barbastella" or " talarida", and Even I find annoying some copy and pastes from the first score and the fact they has lost the possibility to use Batman's theme heard in molossus and in the End Credits from the first film.
    Even Joker's suite is really stupid, it's just one note! and not very original! Can you imagine some other sound design better for this character? hell yes!

    but if you surpass this things, you have a very unique score, for better or for worst, and a better devoloped and more thematical score than the first one.

    "A dark Knight "makes my mind blow away, the synthetiser and the touching melodies is one of the reasons why i love Zimmer! How they play with that tunes!
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Nautilus wrote
    Even Joker's suite is really stupid, it's just one note! and not very original! Can you imagine some other sound design better for this character? hell yes!


    Which one's the joker's suite?
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  19. Giving Why so serious? another spin right now I find myself seeing where they are coming from with this one. I´m really looking forward to see hot that works out in the movie.
  20. Christodoulides wrote
    Which one's the joker's suite?

    Why so serious?
    •  
      CommentAuthorThomas
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Christodoulides wrote
    Which one's the joker's suite?

    Why so serious?


    Do we really know if this is the Joker suite? From the clips I've seen so far it's the music from the first (?) scene from the movie.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    That's what i am asking too confused
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  23. Well, I´m just guessing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNautilus
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Ralph Kruhm wrote
    Well, I´m just guessing.


    I'm guessing that too. In fact, i don't see a lot of score in this realease, I think more are suites than properly score tracks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPat
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Steven wrote
    At the very least, I think it's created a fascinating discussion about the state of modern film music. A lot are probably bored with reading about Zimmer, JNH and their Batman scores. I am too to a degree, but it does give us a chance to ponder on what we think film music should sound like which is a very interesting part of the discussion.

    But when people get defensive and bitchy, it brings a downer on the whole discussion. We're just here to talk about film music, not kill each other! dizzy biggrin


    :clap: :clap: :clap:

    At last. Nicely put smile
    •  
      CommentAuthorMarselus
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Nautilus wrote
    And for you: Bruce Wayne theme is heard in Agent of Chaos, in a heroic way (not so obvious like in the End credits from the first film) and in a piano dramatic wa (yes, almost a copy and paste from barbastella

    confused
    Where?? In "Agent of Chaos"?
    Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
    •  
      CommentAuthordgoldwas
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    I'm curious to know how many of your opinions change about the score once you hear it in the context of the film....
    I consider a project a success when Thor says he won't buy it
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    lp wrote
    Erik Woods wrote

    Zimmer needs an army to create "his" scores while Williams can easily create "his" scores himself with one other orchestrator.

    -Erik-


    There, I made the comparison more apples and orange like. Thanks for showing me your biased opinion.


    I stated the facts. Zimmer needs an army, Williams doesn't. FACT!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorErik Woods
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    dgoldwas wrote
    I'm curious to know how many of your opinions change about the score once you hear it in the context of the film....


    This has happened to me many times before. Munich was one such case. Loved the score on CD but not so much in the film. Now, after repeated viewings of Munich I'm come to appreciate the film and score as heard in the film a little bit more but I don't like it as much as I did when I first heard it on CD.

    Oh no! Erik, the biased Williams fan, doesn't like a Williams score? THE HUMANITY!!!

    -Erik-
    host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThomas
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2008
    Erik Woods wrote
    lp wrote
    Erik Woods wrote

    Zimmer needs an army to create "his" scores while Williams can easily create "his" scores himself with one other orchestrator.

    -Erik-


    There, I made the comparison more apples and orange like. Thanks for showing me your biased opinion.


    I stated the facts. Zimmer needs an army, Williams doesn't. FACT!

    -Erik-


    The interesting point is why only Hans Zimmer gets criticized and not e.g. John Powell.

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