As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)

I agree that "thinking, making theories and deductions is how we come closer to the truth", but they alone are not enough. Observation is the key component missing here. Without observation, you won't be dealing with the real world. Sure you can build up elaborate, and internally logical fantasies, and take them on faith, but without observation, no amount of thinking will bring you closer to truth.




Sorry about that. Sometimes when I rant I forget to think about how my words will be received. The humility statement was meant broadly, and wasn't directed specifically at you. My point was that if you (in a broad sense) thinks you can figure the entire world out by simply thinking really hard, you're overestimating yourself, and underestimating the importance of other people's input. Human bias must be taken into account. We're not unbiased machines. We have to be humble enough to question ourselves and admit to our mistakes. Faith, to me, seems like a failure to question yourself. <- Again, I'm not accusing you of arrogance, I'm bringing it up as a general statement, for debate.




I don't see how faith can not be blind. I agree that faith that isn't declared as the ultimate truth is preferable to dogmatic faith. But faith is still made up without evidence, hence blind..... or at least visually impaired.

Peter

The method of careful obeservation (critical, thoughtful) can surely be there, actually. Not in the material way, but on an intangibly spiritual level. For me that runs parallel to the study of our material world and universe, which can be studied through physical science. Even today's discoveries would've sounded like a fantasy way back.



No problem. I agree about bias. But I think it can be applied in a very broad sense, really. Critically questioning yourself about it in an honest manner, and considering learned men on both sides seeks to remove that. For me, lack of material, tangible evidence in faith does not necessarily mean a defiance of reason or acceptance of some blind dogma. Maybe seemingly out of context in a physical and material context, but powerful at a different, intangible level. Human experience and intuition can be amazingly accurate, even beyond emotional thinking. It is at this level that the power of the intangible, invisible mind comes to play IMO. Ah well, I look at these very differently than you I guess.



Well, it's still got four other senses even if this analogy is correct. I say it's something which leads in places of darkness, where no other light enters. There are things which go beyond the scope of tangible scientific evidence, IMO.

I guess we're birds of a different feather regarding this matter, and can agree to disagree at this point.

Hehe, hilarious.

It's amazing how many christians seem to have a problem with atheists exercising the same right as they themselves have. It's even portrayed as "militant" as soon as an atheist speaks his mind.

Peter

Cofton Park, the venue for the Pope's visit to Birmingham on Sun 19th, is just around the corner from where I live. This morning we received a letter in the post informing us that all local residents could be subject to random police checks in the days up to and including his visit. So now, when making my way round the local area, I have to carry photo ID and a utility bill or payslip from my employer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQLfMm3PZPc

Makes me feel like converting.

Peter

how true!

Minnesota would indeed be an alien world to me. Here in Denmark I almost never meet anyone who openly professes to be christian, as religion is seen as a private thing. To be confronted with a republican, Bible thumbing tea party nutter would no doubt be a surreal experience. I wouldn't even know how to communicate with such a person.

Peter

Pope protesting in the UK:

Some very inventive banners. I like this one, despite the misspelling. And this sign in the background made me laugh out loud.

Richard Dawkins also had a nice, ranty speech, focusing on the Pope blaming WW2 on atheism and secularism.

Peter

Hehe. It was a couple of days ago after he had landed in the UK. It's some pretty grotesque statements to make on your first day as a guest in a secular country. http://www.catholic.org/international/i … p?id=38293

In any case, I think Dawkins addressed it very well.

Peter

ahaha amazing!

Survey: Americans don't know much about religion

You can try some of the questions to test yourself and compare your results with the various groups in the survey. I got the jewish sabbath and the First Great Awakening questions wrong, but 87% is ok when comparing to the embarrassing survey results.

Atheists/agnostics was the group that scored highest. Funny how the people who know most about religion are the same ones rejecting it.

Peter

Ha! Me too!

87% - a lot better than I thought I would do.

I need to revise on what best describes the Catholic teaching about the bread and wine used for Communion and who was the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation?

Some schoolboy errors there!

Good score then.




Actually I think the 15 questions was from the survey. The survey just had 17 additional questions that the online quiz didn't have.




Hehe, not bad.

Peter