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As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)
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- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeDec 21st 2011
PawelStroinski wrote
Things are downright strange here.
What kind of morals should Bible give anyway, I mean? Yes, I would very carefully say that the modern state does partly come from the Middle Age, which means things dependant on religion, but that would also mean that we are rejecting a whole bunch of state philosophies that aren't religious per se in nature (since Machiavelli political philosophy has been saying that it's better if a state does accept or even support religious systems, but purely on a pragmatic level) and then we reject the concepts of Enlightement, which basically created the modern political philosophy and that came from a purely rational point of view on many levels.
Can't argue
No country today openly refers to the morals and values from the Bible directly, even if that set happens to more or less (at least officially, but let's keep what's clandestine clandestine) agree with the Ten Commandments there are at least hundred sources, where the same "set of values and morals" could be taken from.listen to more classical music! -
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeDec 21st 2011 edited
I sometimes think of Christianity as a dog on a leash continually resisting to walk, while society is the owner trying to move forward. I'm sure Christianity has had an influence on the societies we have today, but look at every major progression is history; we've always seen the greatest resistance from Christian groups, whether we're talking slavery, racism, science, homophobia, all using the Bible to justify their outdated views. But perhaps I'm being a bit one-sided, as all these changes have likewise had progressive Christians on the opposite end. Overall it just seems like Christianity have always tried to hold society back, but society has slowly managed to pull it kicking and screaming into modernity.
In any case, reading the ten commandments, and other laws of the Bible, almost nothing is relevant today. Even if we look at the very revered ten commandments. I mean "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", or the one about graven images or blashemy, the direct opposites of freedom of religion. In today's world we only have such policies carried out in scary regimes like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
It's also not illegal to commit adultery or to not honor your mother and father, or lie (with few exceptions), and it's certainly not illegal to covet; in fact modern capitalistic societies depend on coveting.
Only ones we really find in our legal systems are the ones about stealing and killing, but even the latter one has exceptions (war, self defense etc.). You could fill an entire book on legal details dealing with killing; what's permitted and how it should be punished. A simplistic "thou shalt not kill" has no bearing on the complexities of how killing is treated by the legal system today.
In any case, my country has a state church, and same with England, so I don't really have too much issue about anyone calling our countries Christian; though today I think we're much more secular than Christian. Anyway, I don't really understand why anyone would call a country Christian, as it's somewhat exclusive, considering that it's often said about countries where citizens don't just believe in Christianity. The US is a bit different, as it was very secular from the start, and doesn't have these Christian relics as we have in Europe, so I wouldn't call the US a Christian country.
Peter
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeDec 21st 2011
plindboe wrote
I sometimes think of Christianity as a dog on a leash continually resisting to walk, while society is the owner trying to move forward. I'm sure Christianity has had an influence on the societies we have today, but look at every major progression is history; we've always seen the greatest resistance from Christian groups, whether we're talking slavery, racism, science, homophobia, all using the Bible to justify their outdated views. But perhaps I'm being a bit one-sided, as all these changes have likewise had progressive Christians on the opposite end. Overall it just seems like Christianity have always tried to hold society back, but society has slowly managed to pull it kicking and screaming into modernity.
Thankfully bad ideas have a habit of dying out. Hopefully the myth that religion is the authority on matters of spirituality (and indeed morality) will one day reside amongst other peculiarities of history and fade into mere anecdotes for future generations. -
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
plindboe wrote
I sometimes think of Christianity as a dog on a leash continually resisting to walk, while society is the owner trying to move forward. I'm sure Christianity has had an influence on the societies we have today, but look at every major progression is history; we've always seen the greatest resistance from Christian groups, whether we're talking slavery, racism, science, homophobia, all using the Bible to justify their outdated views. But perhaps I'm being a bit one-sided, as all these changes have likewise had progressive Christians on the opposite end. Overall it just seems like Christianity have always tried to hold society back, but society has slowly managed to pull it kicking and screaming into modernity.
Peter
You are being one-sided, very much so
Tomlisten to more classical music! -
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
Steven wrote
Thankfully bad ideas have a habit of dying out. Hopefully the myth that religion is the authority on matters of spirituality (and indeed morality) will one day reside amongst other peculiarities of history and fade into mere anecdotes for future generations.
I don't necessarily see this as a bad idea. If people choose to believe that there is something else and this makes them feel good I'm in favor of it, providing they don't force their opinion on anyone else. I think it is absolutely moronic to have zoos. We should let these animals alone but I'm in a tiny minority. The only thing I can do is refuse to support them with my money. I don't go around creating havoc in society over this particular issue.
Tomlisten to more classical music! -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011 edited
sdtom wrote
Steven wrote
Thankfully bad ideas have a habit of dying out. Hopefully the myth that religion is the authority on matters of spirituality (and indeed morality) will one day reside amongst other peculiarities of history and fade into mere anecdotes for future generations.
I don't necessarily see this as a bad idea. If people choose to believe that there is something else and this makes them feel good I'm in favor of it, providing they don't force their opinion on anyone else.
Unfortunately religious morals are rarely a private matter. As well, religion as an authority on matters of ethics and morality means that it cannot admit to progress. Religion generally teaches an absolute morality; the scripture has the final word. Morality and ethics should be treated with the same degree of scientific reasoning and sober discussion as any other discourse in human affairs. (If the Bible was written and upheld as an authority on physical health, considering the wisdom of its authors, I wonder how long its devout followers would survive?)
Moderate religiousness is moderate only because it's had to adapt to modern world views in order to survive in a modern society. Given the perimeters of modern ethics, it's little surprise that religion has adopted a less-than-confident approach to some of its more barbaric preachings. It's why many can cherry pick the nice parts of the Bible and say "Look! Right there! That's religion!"
But I digress.
I think it is absolutely moronic to have zoos. We should let these animals alone but I'm in a tiny minority. The only thing I can do is refuse to support them with my money. I don't go around creating havoc in society over this particular issue.
Tom
I'm sure not all zoos have the same standards, but many provide genuine care for their animals, and can be a great source of animal research. You support far worse if you purchase intensively farmed meat products! -
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
I don't necessarily go along with the animal research as it has nothing to do with zoos. If they really feel the medical need for exploring a promising cancer serum on monkeys they can do what they feel is best. Just my opinion.
I eat no meat these days as I agree with you 100%
Tomlisten to more classical music! -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
Why are you against religious groups ?Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
sdtom wrote
I eat no meat these days as I agree with you 100%
Tom
(Although I'm not necessarily against free range meat. At least the animals are well looked after and have a relatively good life!) -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
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- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
Steven wrote
At least the animals are well looked after
At first glance I thought you said "the animals are well Cooked...".
I'm kinda hungry.
And I probably should put in my contacts.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011 edited
plindboe wrote
I sometimes think of Christianity as a dog on a leash continually resisting to walk, while society is the owner trying to move forward.
I'm glad you only think that some of the time.
A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
I'd be interested to hear your point of view on the matter, Michael! This thread needs a bit of balance methinks.
Even if just for the sake of interesting discussion. -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
I'll see what I can do. I do sometimes feel the deck is a bit loaded in here to come in swinging, but I'll try to provide a convincingly moderate spiritual-but-not-overly-religious-but-not-just-as-a-survival-mechanism voice.A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
tread carefullylisten to more classical music! -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
Especially if walking on water, only Jesus and Superman can do that.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
others have triedlisten to more classical music! -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011
sdtom wrote
tread carefully
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance... that principle is contempt prior to investigation" Herbert Spencer
Indeed! -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJan 7th 2012
Mind blown. -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJan 8th 2012
http://memebase.com/category/best-of-we … ost-129220Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJan 8th 2012 edited
Wait, which one...
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJan 8th 2012
Demetris wrote
http://memebase.com/category/best-of-we … ost-129220
Completely off topic, but did you see this video?
to the power of 
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- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJan 8th 2012
Steven wrote
Wait, which one...
http://memebase.com/2012/01/02/internet … nt-hippie/Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJan 8th 2012
Er... okay. Not sure I see the relevance?
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- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeJan 8th 2012
Steven wrote
Er... okay. Not sure I see the relevance?
Nor Ilisten to more classical music! -
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2012
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- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2012
Agreed.http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2012
So are you saying that you are misrepresented in this thread, or that you're fed up with Christians being 'misrepresented' in general?
And I'm still not sure what point you're making with the hippie meme?
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- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2012
Not every picture that someone puts words in is a meme.
It's just something someone made up at one time, trying, apparently, to make the point that one has no right to address a wrong if one simultaneously not also addresses every other conceivable wrong in the world as well.
Apparently this person seems to favour doing absolutely nothing about anything ever.
Forgetting that wise old adagium that all it takes for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJan 9th 2012 edited
Martijn wrote
Not every picture that someone puts words in is a meme.
True. It's a meme within a meme. (The meme of putting words to a picture.)
It's just something someone made up at one time, trying, apparently, to make the point that one has no right to address a wrong if one simultaneously not also addresses every other conceivable wrong in the world as well.
...which is precisely why I'm confused about the point Demetris is trying to make?