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    • CommentAuthormarkrayen
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    Martijn wrote
    Your point about form creating expectation citing Mozart's 27th as an example is an interesting and good one, and certainly serves to underline the fact that understanding (and expectation) of a musical form may increase appreciation and enjoyment.

    However I would bring this against it: if that musical joke was not understood, would that make the whole piece or parts of it UNenjoyable?

    I would argue not.


    I agree with you on this beyond question, and my purpose with that example was only an attempt to confirm the existance of an extramusical contribution to a musical appreciation, not to claim that such a contribution was neccessarily vital. Also, I selected the cadenza of Mozart's 27th because it was the easiest thing to describe that came to mind at the time of writing. A close study of the traditional concerto form and Mozart's treatment of it throughout his catalogue opens up an entire world of methods far more elaborate than the example I presented here, in order to condition, prepare, and most importantly, break expectations. However, my assertion (like yours I think) is that while such elements certainly do contribute (to an appreciation) as a means of stimulating or increasing musical interest - they are, in their own right, non-vital "curiosities" compared to the actual musical content itself.

    But perhaps the question lies more in defining the actual importance of such a "stimulation of interest". Listeners are by nature often impatient and quickly lose interest. They (including myself, naturally) often struggle to maintain interest when exploring unknown composers, styles, or individual works. In these cases (which relates to the question Demetris posed), a knowledge and insight into some of music's most common denominators such as musical structure, can help on a purely psychological level in order to sustain a listener's interest in the given work. But please note that I would never suggest that a musician (or musicologist for that matter) neccesarily is in the posession of a "higher" appreciation of music than that of others. In best case it may be true that music is more easily "accessible" to them due to their presumed knowledge, education, and first-hand musical experience, but I refuse to agree that there exists an absolute distinction between a musicians level of appreciation compared to that of others. Martijn, you seem to be living proof of that, and the fact that I can engage in such a vital discussion about the very essence of music with someone I presume is not a musician is evidence of the universal accessibility of music, regardless of what your education or social background may be.

    We're not saying (much) different things, I think.


    No, not at all. beer

    Actually, I think we engaged in a similar discussion a few years ago at good old Scorereviews. I can't for the life of me remember what it was about, but remember I was being a complete smart-ass and you were constantly putting me in my place! wink
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      CommentAuthorMiya
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    Beat score of 2008, and nobody mentioned this?

    punk Ponyo On The Cliff By The Sea - Joe Hisaishi punk



    ... actually I'm not up to date about new releases, so I only have Ponyo and The Chronicles Of Narnia: Prince Caspian. Though the latter is not as bad as some people exclaiming here, it couldn't reach the beauty of The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe.

    Ah, Zimmer's Casi Divas was nice, even if I've heard only the bad quality clip at H-Z.com.
    Labels are for cans, not people. - Anthony Rapp
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    I personally think it's overrated. Just my opinion. Hisaishi has written far better scores.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
  1. Try his score for I WANT TO BE A SHELLFISH, Demetris. Superb, and probably more to your taste. wink
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorDemonStar
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    I heard praise about Shellfish, I need to get it too.
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      CommentAuthorMiya
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009 edited
    Christodoulides wrote
    I personally think it's overrated. Just my opinion. Hisaishi has written far better scores.


    Maybe it's overreacted by me biggrin But in my opinion, it's much better than Howl's Moving Castle, which somehow bores me except the amazing Merry-Go-Round theme.

    Ponyo may not be superior to Princess Mononoke, Porco Rosso, or Spirited Away, etc. But I never think it's inferior to them. And it's musically more matured than My Neighbor Totoro (1988), which also aims for little children.

    (Though Ponyo never can replace Totoro in my heart, because of its unforgettable themes, songs and my childhood memories smile )
    Labels are for cans, not people. - Anthony Rapp
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      CommentAuthorMiya
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    Try his score for I WANT TO BE A SHELLFISH, Demetris. Superb, and probably more to your taste. wink


    He already heard it and loved it smile

    I'm not familiar with Hisaishi's non-Miyazaki works yet. I should try more of them sooner or later!
    Labels are for cans, not people. - Anthony Rapp
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      CommentAuthorSteven
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    I Want To Be Selfish... hehe... hehe.. biggrin
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      CommentAuthorMiya
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    Demetris wanted to be selfish. biggrin wink
    Labels are for cans, not people. - Anthony Rapp
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2009
    franz_conrad wrote
    Try his score for I WANT TO BE A SHELLFISH, Demetris. Superb, and probably more to your taste. wink


    It is indeed; much superior.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2009
    markrayen wrote

    But perhaps the question lies more in defining the actual importance of such a "stimulation of interest". Listeners are by nature often impatient and quickly lose interest. They (including myself, naturally) often struggle to maintain interest when exploring unknown composers, styles, or individual works. In these cases (which relates to the question Demetris posed), a knowledge and insight into some of music's most common denominators such as musical structure, can help on a purely psychological level in order to sustain a listener's interest in the given work.


    That's a DAMN fine point and worthy of a separate thread, which I will create as soon as I have a proper idea for an encompassing point or discussion (otherwise it would just be another lecture-ish-like thingy).

    Actually, I think we engaged in a similar discussion a few years ago at good old Scorereviews. I can't for the life of me remember what it was about, but remember I was being a complete smart-ass and you were constantly putting me in my place! wink


    shame
    I wasn't as bad as all that, was I?
    I do remember you being a very adamant and heated debater, but not a smart-ass at all!
    shame

    I honestly do enjoy such discussions.
    At the very least they serve to collect and organize my own thoughts on the subject (which is way preferable over the wisecracking oneliners I sometimes use to make), at best they are in fact educational!
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
    • CommentAuthormarkrayen
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2009
    Martijn wrote
    I honestly do enjoy such discussions.
    At the very least they serve to collect and organize my own thoughts on the subject (which is way preferable over the wisecracking oneliners I sometimes use to make), at best they are in fact educational!


    Absolutely! smile
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      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2009
    Reviewers of Film Music on the Web give an overview of their favourites of 2008 (an that includes Demetris and Franz):
    http://www.musicweb-international.com/c … m_2008.htm
    Kazoo
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      CommentAuthorMartijn
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2009 edited
    Yeah, Demetris and Franz are among my favourites of 2008 as well.
    'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
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      CommentAuthorBregt
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2009
    Martijn wrote
    Yeah, Demetris and Franz are among my favourites of 2008 as well.

    Yeah, well, their motifs are a bit weak.
    Kazoo
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2009
    Bregt wrote
    Reviewers of Film Music on the Web give an overview of their favourites of 2008 (an that includes Demetris and Franz):


    Who?
    • CommentAuthorAnthony
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2009
    Bregt wrote
    Martijn wrote
    Yeah, Demetris and Franz are among my favourites of 2008 as well.

    Yeah, well, their motifs are a bit weak.


    But that whole two note thing from Demetris...genius!
  2. Bregt wrote
    Martijn wrote
    Yeah, Demetris and Franz are among my favourites of 2008 as well.

    Yeah, well, their motifs are a bit weak.


    biggrin
    It's not the theme, it's the quality of the orchestration!
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorSouthall
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2009
    Demetris is JNH to Franz's Zimmer. Suddenly it all becomes clear.
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      CommentAuthorRian
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
    Southall wrote
    Demetris is JNH to Franz's Zimmer. Suddenly it all becomes clear.

    Sorry, you've lost me.
    What do you hear? Nothing but the rain...
  3. If he's right, I've lost my soul too!
    A butterfly thinks therefore I am
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      CommentAuthorfommes
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
    I don't think anybody mentioned one of my favourite 2008 scores yet, Mark Snow's new score for The X-Files.
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      CommentAuthorDemetris
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009
    I don't think anyone mentioned, or will mention that score in any best of 2008 lists.
    Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
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      CommentAuthorfommes
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2009
    Well, then, I'd nominate that as one of the major oversights of last year. It has wonderful cues, one of the best themes of the last years, and even the couple of subdued thriller tracks have much going for them.