World events

Amazingly Papandreou has obtained an agreement within his cabinet to push ahaead with a referendum.
He's still to get an OK from the parliament, of course. The timing -and indeed the WHY- of this move though is still unclear.

Of course the party line is that "the Greek government wants a solid basis for any agreement, and that there is no doubt of the positive outcome". I find this reasoning to be incredibly optimistic. Not to mention naive. EVEN with the socio-psychological given that any large group fears change in all its form and will ALWAYS speak against major reforms, the mood in Greece has of course been overwhelmingly negative towards Europe. To ask for a vote of confidence now seems like the death stab for the entire deal.

And what with Italy now hanging in the balance, my prediction (for what it's worth) is that Greece will be "allowed" to secede from the monetary union (which means an immediate bankrupcy and years of crisis internally), and rescuing efforts will be redirected towards Italy and Spain.

In fact, the Dutch have already stated that the deal is off if the referendum goes through.
I fear they are only saying what everyone else is thinking.

In the meantime the market panics. But then the market is a psychotic doe, eternally caught in headlights. So I'm not even particularly bothered by that any more. Some summary executions of investment bankers should restore some peace and order.

For some reason, this really annoys me:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15527534

"US cuts UNESCO funds over vote for Palestinian seat" I don't usually follow stories such as this, but the whole US/Israel attitude doesn't seem to me to help resolve the issues. It always seems to be they talk one way and act another.

The problem here is not so much one of rabid pro-Israeli sentiment today, as it was 20 years ago: apparently in 1990 the US Senate (indeed in a frenzy of rabid pro-Israeli sentiment, widely criticised even back in the day) passed a law that barred any government agency ever contributing anything to anything associated with Palestina.

It's a ridiculous law, but it does put the US in a bit of a quandary today.

If the Greeks vote no and let Greece slip out of the Eurozone, it'll be the biggest mistake amidst a horde of bad decisions in the post-war country.

Also, Martijn, i am not too sure how the world media presents it but Greeks aren't anti-Eu at all, i can tell you from living inside the country everyday. They're against all the experiments that are being thrown onto us and against depriving the people the very few money they already get in order to try and pay for the damages. People here have been doing tremendous sacrifices during the last couple of years and only by living here you would understand it; they are prepared to be sacrificed but for a cause, they see things aren't working for us and can't detect and end-cause in all of this, not the slightest sign of improvement in the future. Instead more austerity measures are being thrown upon the people who simply can't work and raise their families anymore, instead of throwing the dogs into the jail and making them pay, i.e. the faulty governments who created the mess and the responsible banks.

You can't make someone who earns 700 euros a month to raise a family in a capitalist country, earn half that amount and still try to live and work in a country that's getting more expensive by day and via ridiculous taxes. Are you aware that they make us pay from 600 euros up to 6000 euros per year for each house we own? Regardless how small it might be, if it's your primary and only residence, if you have family or if you're unemployed. And that's just one of the extreme and illogical measures people have been living under, but with no result, things are getting worse and worse for us. Nobody is anti-Eu, at least not the majority of people, they just want results for their sacrifices and we want to stay in the Euro no matter if it means a further decrease in our everyday living quality; but better days have to come through this. This is what people want and this is why i'll vote yes.

(on your last note: yeah, but this is extra! we already have property owning taxes like every other country, this is an additional emergency fee on housing! and further on: 1. what's the average sallary there? and 2.the governments only take and don't give anything back, in contrast to your governments).

Oh!

I wasn't aware of that.

And yes, I completely empathise with the rest: the gap between what teachers like Stavi make and the cost they incur is absolutely staggering and shocking. And indeed an excellent case can be made that the taxes we pay up north at least for a goodly part go to projects that will (hopefully) benefit The Netherlands and Europe (yes, yes, there's quite a few critical notes to be made there, but the principle is sound, so let's keep it at that for argument's sake).

For the Greeks it's very clear: you will never see any clear and direct benefit from those tax euros ever.
It's more like a punitive measure or a fine than a tax.

Exactly. Completely agreeing with you.

I am glad you're also understanding where we stand. As i said, we aren't anti-Eu. Rather the contrary. I, for one, and my family, are accepting / willing to accept even more sacrifices, but for a cause. When it goes for nothing, it fills you with rage. But as you say, it's very possible we are being fined, not taxed in reality. Nothing good is going to come out of it in the end, we are just paying for the big boys' bullcrap, part of which the people of the previous 2 generations are responsible for. Problem is we inherited all that which was made when we weren't even born / or when we were children. This is how the world rolls though i am afraid.

Norway, Australia and The Netherlands are in the top 3 of Human Development Index (http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/). Lots of members here live in these countries. Congrats!

UK is only 28 and just one place ahead of Greece. Belgium is at 18. Congo, our former colony, is the worst country to live in.

Sadly it seems like a failed experiment so far. With no proper foundations and extreme and immature opening. It should have never spread so far so fast.

Makes sense to me

We are a country with problems (a Belgian woman I know told me that we are only 28th in the Human Development Index - whatever that is) but I think we're all pretty pleased that we're not in the Euro. It may have been heavy-handed xenophobia rather than remarkable economic foresight which kept us out, but hey.

At this point I would be happy to be out of he euro too but we can. We will never be able now, it's euro or disaster.

I think that the majority of people in the UK have always been glad we never went into the Euro. As you say, xenophobia rather than economic reasons.

NAFTA for the win.