Talking Airplanes!

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- CommentAuthorAnthony
- CommentTimeJun 1st 2009
I don't get how it just goes "missing". Yes they say it was struck by lightening, but surely they would have noticed it disappear on the radar screens all of a sudden? Or do planes "check in" at certain points?
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeJun 1st 2009
Christodoulides wrote
'Cause they're full of pseudo-aviation know it all jouirnalists who are reading pprune.org, blowing it up with crap and transmitting all the kind of junk, as it happens with every major aviation disaster.

We have the excellent Channel 4 news and the BBC, nothing wrong with those.
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 1st 2009
Planes check in via automated electronic transmissions through their TCAS systems. Most conventional civil radars can't actually spot the planes themselves, but they're relying on what the plane tells them about it, where it is and how high it is, towards where it is travelling, at what speed etc etc. They're just "reading out loud" the data that the plane is sending.

Now, if a plane is travelling at 450+ knots at 350000+ feet and for SOME reason the transmission stops, then the plane could then proceed and go anywhere 'till it crashes / lands, without the civil radars picking up anything.

If you add the thunderstorm in all of that, you get the idea.

Only some specific types of MILITARY radar are able to locate a plane anywhere, no matter if that's transmitting or not.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorBobdH
- CommentTimeJun 1st 2009 edited
Still, there must've been a radioconnection with the pilots right before transmission went down? That must tell a lot, I'd guess, of at least where to start looking for it (which is probably what they're doing right now anyway).

NEVER MIND: radioconnection I'm sure is the first thing to go down in events like these.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
The last radio communication said nothing about a problem. The automatic checking sendout of the plane itself was the last they got and that reported some electrical problems related to thunderstorm.

Read the links i gave you
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorBobdH
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
Christodoulides wrote
The last radio communication said nothing about a problem. The automatic checking sendout of the plane itself was the last they got and that reported some electrical problems related to thunderstorm.

Read the links i gave you

Yeah, I'm reading it now... electrical problems and the loss of cabin pressure, yet nothing more.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
Timmer wrote

Christodoulides wrote
'Cause they're full of pseudo-aviation know it all jouirnalists who are reading pprune.org, blowing it up with crap and transmitting all the kind of junk, as it happens with every major aviation disaster.

We have the excellent Channel 4 news and the BBC, nothing wrong with those.

Quoting from pprune.org, which the channels usually read to get out their info, sometimes even live on air:

"
Pay attention.
The rubbish on this website flows on and on. Richard Quest (CNN) is an able representative of such rubbish. A foolish man.

As an experienced A330 pilot, I can inform those PPRuNe posters and TV/radio commentators who have no experience-based knowledge, your stupid postings/TV commentaries are evident and obviously ignorant to aviation professionals and sadly they appear plausible to people who have little understanding. (BBC/Sky News included)

The idiots abound. Thank God for professionals, including the AF pilots who doubtless did their best. When your time is truly up, that is it. My thought is that the situation was beyond resolution. This happens, albeit rarely, in life. And aviation.
"

Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
American news broadcasting is, well, American broadcasting. Speaking from experience of both, I can unequivocally say that British news coverage is much better. (John Simpson. He's all you need to find out about to understand where I'm coming from, trust me.)

Having said that, this recent news feed on the BBC website -although I don't doubt its accuracy- has annoyed me.

As I said, PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE regardless of nationality.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
The argument has nothing to do with British people, media or any other nationalities. The argument has to do with proper civil aviation websites against general news' stations / sites who will blow up crap in order to shock, awe and sell, like they do with all the other subject matters anyway. The amount of armchair experts in these cases and who pop up at once, is staggering!
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009 edited
I know what you mean D and I agree with you to a large degree but the BBC and the more in-depth Channel 4 news channels tend to be far more accurate in their broadcasts. The American networks are dreadful.

And Steven, check out either one of John Simpson's two biography's, startling reading.
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2009
Debris located. Let's await for the official identification and linking to the missing plane.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 … cated.html
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009 edited
Debris scattered in a vast area, very little debris found, the rest (along with the cvf and fdr ("black boxes") probably lie in vast depths with little chance of actually getting hold of that crucial evidence. The pattern of the debris location and its size along with some reports by a close-by flying captain and some passenger from that night in a Air Comet flight 974 from Lima to Paris, might indicate an in-flight explosion , either from an explosive device - terrorist attack, or from a rapid decompression. The pilot mentioned a brilliant white flash, then 6 smaller vertical trails of red fire falling from the sky into the sea, which might enforce those scenarios. Time will tell.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorThor
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
Christodoulides wrote
Debris scattered in a vast area, very little debris found, the rest (along with the cvf and fdr ("black boxes") probably lie in vast depths with little chance of actually getting hold of that crucial evidence. The pattern of the debris location and its size along with some reports by a close-by flying captain and some passenger from that night in a Air Comet flight 974 from Lima to Paris, might indicate an in-flight explosion , either from an explosive device - terrorist attack, or from a rapid decompression. The pilot mentioned a brilliant white flash, then 6 smaller vertical trails of red fire falling from the sky into the sea, which might enforce those scenarios. Time will tell.

From what I've understood, the discovery of an oil flake confirms that the plane did NOT explode. It may, however, have fallen apart mid-air. I don't think they will ever be able to find the flight recorder. The Atlantic is appr. 7000 meters deep at that location!
I am extremely serious.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
Well, a small explosion might have caused the in-flight break up; that, or a sudden decompression. Bur nothing's concrete, 'till the cvr and fdr are found; if they're found.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
Christodoulides wrote
Well, a small explosion might have caused the in-flight break up; that, or a sudden decompression. Bur nothing's concrete, 'till the cvr and fdr are found; if they're found.

A big IF?

Can't this stuff be found ussing the same kind of submersibles used on the Titanic?
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
It's all a matter of budget. Titanic's salvation had a budget that is incomparable to any air crash investigation...In the past, when it happened, the maximum length of time any government or organization ever paid for such a sea-bed extraction was one month; after that, if something wasn't found, money was cut.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
Christodoulides wrote
It's all a matter of budget. Titanic's salvation had a budget that is incomparable to any air crash investigation...In the past, when it happened, the maximum length of time any government or organization ever paid for such a sea-bed extraction was one month; after that, if something wasn't found, money was cut.

Thought as much. If just one person of world importance had been on board you can bet every stop would have been pulled.
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorThomas Glorieux
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
Christodoulides wrote

Anthony wrote
When I first heard the news I immediately thought "Lost island", but then realised it's not at all funny as the plane has probably crashed.

You thought of LOST too? Now i know we are sick

I thought of it too, and I think of a lot of folk did the same
waaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh
- CommentAuthorThor
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
Christodoulides wrote
It's all a matter of budget. Titanic's salvation had a budget that is incomparable to any air crash investigation...In the past, when it happened, the maximum length of time any government or organization ever paid for such a sea-bed extraction was one month; after that, if something wasn't found, money was cut.

Not to mention that those flight recorders only have a lifespan of about 30 days (right?). I doubt a TITANIC-style sub would even be able to retrieve it in time even if they knew the exact location and depth.
I am extremely serious.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 4th 2009
Yeah, for 30 days they transmit a locating signal but sadly, it hasn't been picked up yet for this crash; either they were completely destroyed by the forces of crash and thus rendered unable, (which hasn't happened from what i remember, ever) either they're too deep for the signal to come up which is what everyone's afraid it's actually happening; in 4 km (if i remember correctly) of depth and with the ocean bed being essentially mountains, the work is very, very hard and the chances are few; let's hope it's found soon or else this unspeakable and completely illogical tragedy will remain unsolved, something that can't be allowed for the sake of future safety most importantly.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009 edited
It seems the debris doesn't belong to the plane eventually. And something about conflicting speed messages arriving from the plane while on flight, to the ground.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 … -a330.html
http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0004&opt=0
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
See the first video while scrolling down, on http://www.zougla.gr/news.php?id=43844
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorAnthony
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Very, very, mysterious....

This would be a good thriller if it wasn't true.
- CommentAuthorMarselus
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Anthony wrote
Very, very, mysterious....

This would be a good thriller if it wasn't true.

Indeed. How can a plane disappear without a trace? How can it explode (allegedly) in the middle of the flight with no apparent reason? I mean, thousands of planes go through turbulences and storms everyday, aintit?
Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Well, it's evident something else happened. But because people are talking crap in general, led by the media, and because nothing can be officially said until the black boxes are found, here's what is FACTUAL 'till now:

Forca Aerea Brasileira (FAB) have confirmed in a press release, that one of the Hercules C-130 search airplanes sighted metallic and non-metallic debris on the ocean surface about 650km northnortheast of Fernando de Noronha Island at around 09:49Z. Two locations, about 60km apart have been identified.

The debris has been identified as an airplane seat, small white pieces, an orange ball, a drum and traces of oil and kerosene.

The Brasilian government now assumes, that these parts belonged to the Air France Airbus and confirms the crash.

The FAB announced, that the crash will be investigated under the lead of the French BEA with the support by Brazil's CENIPA (Centro de Investigação e Prevenção de Acidentes Aeronáuticos, Center for Investigation and Prevention of Aviation Accidents).

The BEA said, 20 investigators supported by 30 engineers from Air France and Airbus Industries have started to collect evidence. A team has been sent to Brazil to secure and analyse recordings of air traffic control frequencies and other evidence in Brazil.

The NTSB said, they have accepted an invitation by the BEA to assist in the investigation and have dispatched Bill English as their representative joined by engineers from the FAA, General Electrics (manufacturer of the CF6 engines) and Honeywell.

On Jun 4th the FAB announced, that they have found debris around 510km northnortheast of Fernando de Noronha. A cargo pallet of about 2.5 square meters and two buoys were recovered. Seven hours later the FAB however had to report, that the recovered debris did not belong to the Air France Airbus.

The BEA announced on June 5th, that so far only these facts have been verified:

- location near the planned route over the Atlantic in the vicinity of significant convective cells characteristic for the equatorial region
- from start of the automatic message transmissions the reported measured speeds were inconsistent.

Airbus Industries reminded all operators of Airbus Aircraft series A300 to A380 of the operational, abnormal and emergency procedures in the relevant Flight Crew Operation Manuals and Quick Reference Manuals regarding flying with unreliable airspeed.

More details of the ACARS messages have become available on June 5th and suggest following events while the airplane was in cruise (note, there is no message regarding electrics, hydraulics or engine problems):

02:10Z: Autothrust off
Autopilot off
FBW alternate law
Rudder Travel Limiter Fault
TCAS fault due to antenna fault
Flight Envelope Computation warning
All pitot static ports lost
02:11Z: Failure of all three ADIRUs
Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost)
02:12Z: ADIRUs Air Data disagree
02:13Z: Flight Management, Guidance and Envelope Computer fault
PRIM 1 fault
SEC 1 fault
02:14Z: Cabin Pressure Controller fault (cabin vertical speed)

http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1/0004&opt=0

-----------

ALSO READ THIS:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 … -a330.html
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Marselus wrote

Anthony wrote
Very, very, mysterious....

This would be a good thriller if it wasn't true.

Indeed. How can a plane disappear without a trace? How can it explode (allegedly) in the middle of the flight with no apparent reason? I mean, thousands of planes go through turbulences and storms everyday, aintit?

As D and others have speculated, it could be a miriad of reasons. And the Atlantic ocean is an enormous and in places, exceptionally deep place, wreckage will sink or be moved hundreds of miles by the currents....looking for a needle in a haystack comes to mind but I think more so.
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorMarselus
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Timmer wrote

Marselus wrote

Anthony wrote
Very, very, mysterious....

This would be a good thriller if it wasn't true.

Indeed. How can a plane disappear without a trace? How can it explode (allegedly) in the middle of the flight with no apparent reason? I mean, thousands of planes go through turbulences and storms everyday, aintit?

As D and others have speculated, it could be a miriad of reasons. And the Atlantic ocean is an enormous and in places, exceptionally deep place, wreckage will sink or be moved hundreds of miles by the currents....looking for a needle in a haystack comes to mind but I think more so.

So, unless the black boxes are found in less than 30 days we´ll never know exactly what happened.
Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Timmer wrote

Marselus wrote

Anthony wrote
Very, very, mysterious....

This would be a good thriller if it wasn't true.

Indeed. How can a plane disappear without a trace? How can it explode (allegedly) in the middle of the flight with no apparent reason? I mean, thousands of planes go through turbulences and storms everyday, aintit?

As D and others have speculated, it could be a miriad of reasons. And the Atlantic ocean is an enormous and in places, exceptionally deep place, wreckage will sink or be moved hundreds of miles by the currents....looking for a needle in a haystack comes to mind but I think more so.

The sea bottom at the area is 7km deep! The odd thing in all that is that they haven't found a single piece of confirmed wreckage yet; i have a sense that they're looking at the wrong place, something might have caused the plane to drift miles off course..only time and black boxes will tell.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Marselus wrote

Timmer wrote

Marselus wrote

Anthony wrote
Very, very, mysterious....

This would be a good thriller if it wasn't true.

Indeed. How can a plane disappear without a trace? How can it explode (allegedly) in the middle of the flight with no apparent reason? I mean, thousands of planes go through turbulences and storms everyday, aintit?

As D and others have speculated, it could be a miriad of reasons. And the Atlantic ocean is an enormous and in places, exceptionally deep place, wreckage will sink or be moved hundreds of miles by the currents....looking for a needle in a haystack comes to mind but I think more so.

So, unless the black boxes are found in less than 30 days we´ll never know exactly what happened.

There's a slight chance the black boxes will hold on for more than 30 days, IF found and IF they're in a good situation in the first place and the crash's forces didn't destroy them already; It's CRUCIAL for modern aviation in general that this crash's mystery is finally solved.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorMarselus
- CommentTimeJun 5th 2009
Christodoulides wrote
i have a sense that they're looking at the wrong place, something might have caused the plane to drift miles off course..only time and black boxes will tell.

If that´s what happened, what are the chances of finding the black boxes? I mean, the signal they send is strong enough to find them even if they are miles away from where they are looking for them?
Anything with an orchestra or with a choir....at some point will reach you

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