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Scribe wrote


I don't and have never really understood the intense dislike and criticism of Hans from some people. He puts more effort into his work (well, most of it lol) than practically anyone else working today.

Scribe wrote


Madagascar 3 was the exact reason I added the "most of" caveat.
And my statement was based on Zimmer's stories about working on films compared to other composer's stories of working on films.

Besides, the proof is in the pudding: nearly every Zimmer score (besides the Madagascar films!) contains fresh innovations. You don't have to like the innovations to recognize them for what they are. Its the extra effort from Zimmer that I guess is why people often hate him...because he innovates so much that he has an undue influence on the rest of film music. People copy him precisely because there's something new and (possibly) interesting there.

PawelStroinski wrote
The thing is that I am not talking about Dark Knight Rises in particular, but that little bit called Nothing Out There is some of his most intelligent writing work for years, Inception including.

Looking at things like the reviews of Zimmer at filmtracks, some posts on my forum (though Dark Knight was shockingly liked in Poland, usually the outlook is much worse on my board than it is here and with my own experience with Zimmer's working process merely from my talks to him and my attendance on the recording session (and meeting him a few days earlier in his studio while he was writing Sherlock 2) is something that some people don't have respect at all.

On my own forum I had a lot of fights, where I was very, very snarky and defensive, because people tend to mix up music and the person. The biggest perpetrator in this though is Christian Clemmensen, that little guy, who tends to make personal assessments based on the music. Yes, Hans became a celebrity, yes, I think he likes the popularity, because the popularity is the kind of thing that allows him to stay in his comfort zone (not in a musical sense, but in a life sense, that is he can still stay in his little studio and work with no paparazzi involvement). He gets his money. It's not a problem-less environment, because I do wonder how critical are people around him about his work and things like that (based on what's in Christopher Nolan's liners and the fact that they got him back for Sherlock 2, I'd say that not so critical).

I am in this situation where I am not objective about the person (I can be very critical of the music though, although Dark Knight Rises I honestly like quite a bit), because there was a lot of good things in my life, some of the best things that happened in my life, thanks to Hans Zimmer. I had the composer read a little article I wrote on his music which was to his liking. I got tours of the biggest orchestral recording studios thanks to him. I got a book about music recording techniques (from the 1960s, but still) thanks to him, I attended a Hollywood recording session thanks to him, I have my all-time favourite score autographed at my sight with a personal note. The book also came with a personal note to me in his writing. He always has something nice and inspiring to tell me which comes close to or at the very moments when I need motivation.

This little anecdote will tell you guys a lot about how he is in real life. I didn't mention it in my article, because it wasn't relevant. On the session we were out and I forgot where my lighter was (I am a smoker and so is he) and was standing there with a cigarette (outside the studio, that is). Hans was talking to someone and turned to me, he noticed me without the lighter, lit my cigarette and said sorry. So I have an idea of him as a human being and then I read the bullshit Clemmensen writes and some other members on numerous forums (I know a guy who repeatedly voices that he wishes Hans died) and it's completely separate from what I know from personal contacts, because he is one of the most genuinely nice people I ever met in my life.

I am sorry about this rant, but the whole ordeal, which is not a part of this particular forum, annoys me to bits.

PawelStroinski wrote
Granted, that guy is a very, very frustrated gay man who lashes out about anything to anyone, especially to people who say anything even slightly positive about Republican Party in the USA.

But still, the way Hans polarizes opinions is just weird. I don't seem to see people around (except this very forum) who find him an average composer who's done some better and worse work. He's either the best thing to ever happen in music (not just film music! Music in general! Let's screw classical music, classic rock music, ANYTHING, Hans Zimmer is THE BESTEST THING EVER!!!one1111oneone) or the worst thing ever to happen to this particular genre.

The way he intellectualized his working process and I am not talking about the interview stuff (has anyone talked to Hans about a particular score a year *after* the score was done? Hans has forgotten almost everything about The Thin Red Line music since, I tried asking him about details and he didn't remember, I talked to Hans quite a bit about Inception and he backed off 90% of things he said in interviews), but about things like The Thin Red Line, Hannibal (a funny thing is that people are thinking his best work was either up to somewhere near 1996 or his *most recent* output, I think his best period was 1998-2003 with very notable exceptions in 2004, 2006 and, really, Inception, after I really listened into what he's done there musically), Black Hawk Down.

He has his share of crap, but who doesn't? I think that last year was his positively worst year in his whole career, he was partly responsible for one of the worst game scores I've ever heard (his theme is not even decent, but to be completely honest, Brian Tyler made something worse, which shocked me, for the third part of the series, sorry Demetris, if Tyler ever did the impossible, that was it - better score, but two quite bad themes), suddenly he came out with Inception which was something different from him, even if Clemmensen didn't notice it.

But either the best or the worst thing ever? My favourite recent output happens to be probably from Desplat. On my Polish forum I am regarded as a person who kind of listens to Zimmer, which as you know, is not true.

But I do like the Batman music (the first score was I think perfect in the film, the second has issues, which I partly blame on JNH with his Dent music being plain redundant and Hans - and possibly Nolan - botching the end of the movie with overly serious material, with all due respect, I think the final speeches are even not really well-written), I love Inception, I love Da Vinci Code (great work musically, a bad film score). What keeps me loyal to Hans as a listener and as a fan is really things like Crimson Tide, The Thin Red Line, Gladiator, Hannibal, which I love to bits.

Southall wrote


Hmm, I'm not convinced by that. His stories about working on films are one thing, but the proof is often not in the pudding. (Where's all the great innovation in Dark Knight Rises? Where's the crazy stuff that was so out there nobody could believe it would end up in the score, but it did? Where's the music he mentioned that was nothing like anything anyone had heard before?)

Nobody could deny the influence he's had, but is that really evidence of extra effort? Well, perhaps extra effort in networking and making very smart business decisions, I'd accept that, but not in the actual day job, surely. Do you really hear some fresh new innovation in nearly every score he writes, as you said? He revolutionised the method of scoring films (ie moving from a composer writing the score to having a composer having "ideas" and then having a team writing the score, picking up from a vast library of pre-composed stuff and adapting it to fit the film in question) but aside from the action stuff in the 90s and all the world music that came after (Lisa Gerrard's contribution to) Gladiator, is there really that much evidence of all these new things he brings to the table being propagated amongst other composers' work?

I'd say that 83-year-old Ennio Morricone sitting at a desk and writing 60 minutes of fully-notated music with neither a computer nor an orchestrator (nor even a piano) in sight is evidence of quite a lot of effort. Thomas Newman, Danny Elfman, Michael Giacchino, whoever - you can't tell me these guys don't put everything they've got into their work, in terms of effort. Sure, effort only gets you so far (you need the talent in the first place) but I don't see the evidence that Hans Zimmer puts in any more effort than any of those guys, and I have to say that I can't really imagine Thomas Newman cashing a cheque for $1m for scoring Madagascar 3 or Thunderbirds or whatever and then farming the whole thing out to a huge team of others to actually write the score (which doesn't sound like a huge amount of effort at all to me).

Southall wrote
Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter - Henry Jackman

Indescribably appalling.

franz_conrad wrote
And for my next experiment, I will now quote all the long posts made since my last.

lp wrote


It's not a fact. It's still only an opinion. One shared by many, yes, but consensus of opinions doesn't equate to scientific accuracy. That's a fact. And there's no point arguing.

lp wrote


It's not a fact. It's still only an opinion. One shared by many, yes, but consensus of opinions doesn't equate to scientific accuracy. That's a fact. And there's no point arguing.

lp wrote
To be honest, I'm not a Superman fan. I like the March. I like the love theme. But everything else was a wash to me. But to be broad, I'm more of a Jerry Goldsmith fan than a John Williams fan. I don't think it's the definitive Superman theme. I think it's the best theme ever written for the Richard Donner's version of Superman.

lp wrote
In that respect, I don't think Superman is the best superhero score overall. I don't know what is, since every superhero movies and their respective score are so different from one another.

lp wrote
I do have preferences. I prefer Elfman's original Batman score over his sequel score. And I won't compare Goldenthal's effort with either Elfman's or Zimmer's since the original requirements for their creations were so different.

Southall wrote
I don't think James Horner could handle The Thin Red Line either (but neither do I think Hans Zimmer can handle The Dark Knight Rises, and I do think James Horner could). Horner does straightforward dramatic narratives very well, I think, and struggles with anything that goes beyond that (and I don't mean "dramatic commentary", which strikes me as the easiest style of film scoring, I do think he delves inside films). Zimmer is better employed at applying "concepts" to more audiovisual experiences than stuff with traditional narrative structure, I think. On a simplistic level, Horner's at the 2012 end of the line started by Alex North in the 50s, Zimmer's at the 2012 end of the line started by Delerue and Morricone and whoever in the 60s (and they're totally different lines).

I don't think we're that far apart, really, though it sometimes feels like it! When I talk about Horner intelligence I'm usually speaking about the dramatic journey he plots for the film, rather than anything compositional (I assume that's a given). I don't think there are many (any?) out there who do the traditional route more effectively, actually.

Thor wrote
NP: STAR WARS: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (John Williams)

Interestingly, my least favourite score of the original trilogy, while it seems to be the opposite for everyone else and their grandmother.