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The Dark Knight - Hans Zimmer & James Newton Howard
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- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
I have to say that my first impression was that either the vast majority of the music is Zimmer's, or JNH has just abandoned his own style and wrote in Zimmer's. I thought the album was stronger than Batman Begins, that's for sure. -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
"Blood On My Hand" is another JNH cue, if we were to assume that JNH wrote most of the purely-orchestral cues. -
- CommentAuthorDemonStar
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
I'd have liked it a whole lot better if they had used the Molossus theme even ONCE properly!
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- CommentAuthorNautilus
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
lp wrote
Steven wrote
How about what would seemingly be JNH's only cue on the album 'Harvey Two-Face'? I like that cue. An introspective little piece among Zimmer's macho cues.
That's not JNH's only cue. "Agent of Chaos" is another JNH cue. It's just one of the "macho cues" that you've associated with Hans Zimmer.
Agent of chaos has the newton howard action cues from the first movie.
(again, I guessed well with Myotis and the music from the End credits) -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Southall wrote
I have to say that my first impression was that either the vast majority of the music is Zimmer's, or JNH has just abandoned his own style and wrote in Zimmer's. I thought the album was stronger than Batman Begins, that's for sure.
I can hear parts that are Zimmer's and parts that are JNH's. But whatever. With the score having a more electronic bent, it's not hard for JNH to port over the samples and work with it in his portion, or for Hans to emulate the JNH strings for a passage or so. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Not that there is much value in coming back to the old argument... but if they are ending up imitating each other, what's the value in having two composers do it? Surely you'd get a more distinctive score if either one or the other had done it "alone" (I know in practice neither of them ever works alone, but again that's a different issue). I've no doubt that I will end up listening to Dark Knight a lot more than Batman Begins (indeed I very much doubt I'll ever listen to Batman Begins again) - it's still not what I think a score for an intelligent summer action film could and should be, in terms of quality, but it's a distinct improvement over its predecessor - and who knows, maybe after I see the film I will even think it's OK there. -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Nautilus wrote
lp wrote
Steven wrote
How about what would seemingly be JNH's only cue on the album 'Harvey Two-Face'? I like that cue. An introspective little piece among Zimmer's macho cues.
That's not JNH's only cue. "Agent of Chaos" is another JNH cue. It's just one of the "macho cues" that you've associated with Hans Zimmer.
Agent of chaos has the newton howard action cues from the first movie.
(again, I guessed well with Myotis and the music from the End credits)
And notice that, at the end of "Introduce A Little Anarchy", a bit of JNH's theme sneaks in just before ending. -
- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Southall wrote
Not that there is much value in coming back to the old argument... but if they are ending up imitating each other, what's the value in having two composers do it? Surely you'd get a more distinctive score if either one or the other had done it "alone" (I know in practice neither of them ever works alone, but again that's a different issue). I've no doubt that I will end up listening to Dark Knight a lot more than Batman Begins (indeed I very much doubt I'll ever listen to Batman Begins again) - it's still not what I think a score for an intelligent summer action film could and should be, in terms of quality, but it's a distinct improvement over its predecessor - and who knows, maybe after I see the film I will even think it's OK there.
Well said.
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS! -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Southall wrote
Not that there is much value in coming back to the old argument... but if they are ending up imitating each other, what's the value in having two composers do it? Surely you'd get a more distinctive score if either one or the other had done it "alone" (I know in practice neither of them ever works alone, but again that's a different issue). I've no doubt that I will end up listening to Dark Knight a lot more than Batman Begins (indeed I very much doubt I'll ever listen to Batman Begins again) - it's still not what I think a score for an intelligent summer action film could and should be, in terms of quality, but it's a distinct improvement over its predecessor - and who knows, maybe after I see the film I will even think it's OK there.
Why raise up the argument at all?
I don't understand how this score isn't "distinctive" to anyone who had actually listened to a Zimmer score or a JNH score. But it's pretty distinctive to me as a score that was created by two composer. They wanted to work together, so they did, however their terms were is up to them. To paraphrase JNH, "I'll start the cue, you end the cue" etc...
But does it matter? In the end, they decided that their contribution works for the picture, with what the filmmakers wanted to achieve and that's what matter.
Thus I stomp on the rotting carcass of the dead pony even more. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
lp wrote
Southall wrote
Not that there is much value in coming back to the old argument... but if they are ending up imitating each other, what's the value in having two composers do it? Surely you'd get a more distinctive score if either one or the other had done it "alone" (I know in practice neither of them ever works alone, but again that's a different issue). I've no doubt that I will end up listening to Dark Knight a lot more than Batman Begins (indeed I very much doubt I'll ever listen to Batman Begins again) - it's still not what I think a score for an intelligent summer action film could and should be, in terms of quality, but it's a distinct improvement over its predecessor - and who knows, maybe after I see the film I will even think it's OK there.
Why raise up the argument at all?
I'm guessing, I mean what I do I know, but surely because this is a forum where arguments as such are discussed? Just a stab in the dark. -
- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Steven wrote
lp wrote
Southall wrote
Not that there is much value in coming back to the old argument... but if they are ending up imitating each other, what's the value in having two composers do it? Surely you'd get a more distinctive score if either one or the other had done it "alone" (I know in practice neither of them ever works alone, but again that's a different issue). I've no doubt that I will end up listening to Dark Knight a lot more than Batman Begins (indeed I very much doubt I'll ever listen to Batman Begins again) - it's still not what I think a score for an intelligent summer action film could and should be, in terms of quality, but it's a distinct improvement over its predecessor - and who knows, maybe after I see the film I will even think it's OK there.
Why raise up the argument at all?
I'm guessing, I mean what I do I know, but surely because this is a forum where arguments as such are discussed? Just a stab in the dark.
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS! -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
lp, I do find it odd that you are so quick to have a go at everyone else for keeping this discussion going that if we were to have a look at your most recent comments, I wonder which thread is most predominantly represented?
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- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Steven wrote
lp, I do find it odd that you are so quick to have a go at everyone else for keeping this discussion going that if we were to have a look at your most recent comments, I wonder which thread is most predominantly represented?
Notice that I'm responding to people's comments. The only thing I've started was my impressions of the score. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
lp wrote
Why raise up the argument at all?
Because I think it gets to the very core of one of the reasons film music isn't all that it could be right now. The individual creativity of the composer has gone out of the window. I know that there is a counter-argument (which nobody ever makes, so I will do on their behalf) that having two really top composers work together on something could in theory mean that they end up producing something greater than either could have done individually - the sum being greater than the parts - but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case with this one. And as long as people discuss the score, they will talk about this. Surely it's better than people just saying "it's crap" - at least it's a formulation of a strong supporting case for my opinion that the score is underwhelming. I don't know why it should be inappropriate to raise that, just as it's not inappropriate for you or anyone else to disagree with it. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
lp wrote
Steven wrote
lp, I do find it odd that you are so quick to have a go at everyone else for keeping this discussion going that if we were to have a look at your most recent comments, I wonder which thread is most predominantly represented?
Notice that I'm responding to people's comments.
Same goes for everyone else. People are responding to your comments that are responses to their comments which are responses to other people's comments and so on and so forth. Kinda how a discussion works wouldn't you agree? -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Steven wrote
I'm guessing, I mean what I do I know, but surely because this is a forum where arguments as such are discussed? Just a stab in the dark.
Beside being a smartass, you could also read Southall's post.
If there's no value in raising the argument, then why raise it at all.
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- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008 edited
lp wrote
If there's no value in raising the argument, then why raise it at all.
Beside being a smartass, you could also read Southall's post.
(To answer your rhetorical question.
)
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- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Southall wrote
lp wrote
Why raise up the argument at all?
Because I think it gets to the very core of one of the reasons film music isn't all that it could be right now. The individual creativity of the composer has gone out of the window. I know that there is a counter-argument (which nobody ever makes, so I will do on their behalf) that having two really top composers work together on something could in theory mean that they end up producing something greater than either could have done individually - the sum being greater than the parts - but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case with this one. And as long as people discuss the score, they will talk about this. Surely it's better than people just saying "it's crap" - at least it's a formulation of a strong supporting case for my opinion that the score is underwhelming. I don't know why it should be inappropriate to raise that, just as it's not inappropriate for you or anyone else to disagree with it.
If there's no value in raising the argument, then why raise it at all. Because in the end, as much as you guys would love to talk about this, we're still unable to unearth anything new and you guys end up repeating yourself again and again. Opinion vs Opinion and no facts are available. Yes, your expectation is that the sum is greater than parts, but what if the math wasn't meant to be to meet your expectation? I'm not saying anything against expectation. In general, I don't let my expectation of what a score (that I don't know about) should be, be measured against what the score is, in relation to the movie it was created for. My expectation is about whether a score is interesting or not. You think the score performed underwhelming under your expectation of what it has to be. I think the score worked extremely well for the movie and should prove to have longevity in the scheme of "realistic" comic book movie. -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Anyway.
Side from lp here who's clearly on his man-period (constantly it would appear), I think many good points about film music in general have been made in this thread, so that's certainly a positive.
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- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008 edited
Steven wrote
Anyway.
Side from lp here who's clearly on his man-period (constantly it would appear), I think many good points about film music in general have been made in this thread, so that's certainly a positive.
Yeah, I have to be, being the sole dissenter in the debate against all things Hans Zimmer.
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- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
lp wrote
If there's no value in raising the argument, then why raise it at all. Because in the end, as much as you guys would love to talk about this, we're still unable to unearth anything new and you guys end up repeating yourself again and again. Opinion vs Opinion and no facts are available. Yes, your expectation is that the sum is greater than parts, but what if the math wasn't meant to be to meet your expectation? I'm not saying anything against expectation. In general, I don't let my expectation of what a score (that I don't know about) should be, be measured against what the score is, in relation to the movie it was created for. My expectation is about whether a score is interesting or not. You think the score performed underwhelming under your expectation of what it has to be. I think the score worked extremely well for the movie and should prove to have longevity in the scheme of "realistic" comic book movie.
You're missing my point, I think. My "expectation" is not anything about the style of the score. If it's a great Elfman-style score, fine. If it's a great Zimmer-style score, fine. If it's a great JNH-style score, fine. Even better, if it's a great score in an brave new style for a comic book movies, brilliant! It is underwhelming compared with my expectation about how good music should be. It's just fairly dull music, to me. I have no wish for it to be like great scores of 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60 years ago because time has moved on, I just wish it could be a great score of today. And it isn't. And I keep saying why it's not, and you think I shouldn't do so, but virtually every post on this messageboard is from someone saying whether they like or dislike a particular score, and at least with these two Batman scores there is actually a developed discussion where people are giving reasoned arguments beyond "it's great" or "it's crap". You might find it pointless or repetitive, but believe it or not I am absolutely passionate about film music and I am absolutely passionate in my belief that Hans Zimmer has played a big part in making it far more mediocre, and I won't shut up about that as long as he continues to run it into the ground. The ironic thing is that The Dark Knight is not a bad album (nor is it a great one) but so long as he keeps ruining the thing I love, I will keep talking about it. -
- CommentAuthorSouthall
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
lp wrote
Steven wrote
Anyway.
Side from lp here who's clearly on his man-period (constantly it would appear), I think many good points about film music in general have been made in this thread, so that's certainly a positive.
Yeah, I have to be, being the sole dissenter in the debate against all things Hans Zimmer.
You've got to be kidding! This forum is full of people who worship everything Zimmer ever does. -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Southall wrote
lp wrote
Steven wrote
Anyway.
Side from lp here who's clearly on his man-period (constantly it would appear), I think many good points about film music in general have been made in this thread, so that's certainly a positive.
Yeah, I have to be, being the sole dissenter in the debate against all things Hans Zimmer.
You've got to be kidding! This forum is full of people who worship everything Zimmer ever does.
I don't think that's a fair assessment though. It's like saying that all you do is trash Hans Zimmer's work.
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- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008 edited
Southall wrote
lp wrote
If there's no value in raising the argument, then why raise it at all. Because in the end, as much as you guys would love to talk about this, we're still unable to unearth anything new and you guys end up repeating yourself again and again. Opinion vs Opinion and no facts are available. Yes, your expectation is that the sum is greater than parts, but what if the math wasn't meant to be to meet your expectation? I'm not saying anything against expectation. In general, I don't let my expectation of what a score (that I don't know about) should be, be measured against what the score is, in relation to the movie it was created for. My expectation is about whether a score is interesting or not. You think the score performed underwhelming under your expectation of what it has to be. I think the score worked extremely well for the movie and should prove to have longevity in the scheme of "realistic" comic book movie.
You're missing my point, I think. My "expectation" is not anything about the style of the score. If it's a great Elfman-style score, fine. If it's a great Zimmer-style score, fine. If it's a great JNH-style score, fine. Even better, if it's a great score in an brave new style for a comic book movies, brilliant! It is underwhelming compared with my expectation about how good music should be. It's just fairly dull music, to me. I have no wish for it to be like great scores of 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60 years ago because time has moved on, I just wish it could be a great score of today. And it isn't. And I keep saying why it's not, and you think I shouldn't do so, but virtually every post on this messageboard is from someone saying whether they like or dislike a particular score, and at least with these two Batman scores there is actually a developed discussion where people are giving reasoned arguments beyond "it's great" or "it's crap". You might find it pointless or repetitive, but believe it or not I am absolutely passionate about film music and I am absolutely passionate in my belief that Hans Zimmer has played a big part in making it far more mediocre, and I won't shut up about that as long as he continues to run it into the ground. The ironic thing is that The Dark Knight is not a bad album (nor is it a great one) but so long as he keeps ruining the thing I love, I will keep talking about it.
Bravo! Bravo! Is there a hand clapping emoticon?
:clap:
:cliched slow single clap to room full of clapping:
Anyway, bang on, James. BANG ON!
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS! -
- CommentAuthorlp
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Southall wrote
You might find it pointless or repetitive, but believe it or not I am absolutely passionate about film music and I am absolutely passionate in my belief that Hans Zimmer has played a big part in making it far more mediocre, and I won't shut up about that as long as he continues to run it into the ground. The ironic thing is that The Dark Knight is not a bad album (nor is it a great one) but so long as he keeps ruining the thing I love, I will keep talking about it.
All righty then, I'll recognize your right to being a fair and reasonable human being. -
- CommentAuthorBregt
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Erik Woods wrote
Bravo! Bravo! Is there a hand clapping emoticon?
:clap:
:cliched slow single clap to room full of clapping:
Kazoo -
- CommentAuthorErik Woods
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Bregt wrote
Erik Woods wrote
Bravo! Bravo! Is there a hand clapping emoticon?
:clap:
:cliched slow single clap to room full of clapping:
Thanks!
-Erik-host and executive producer of THE CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO PODCAST | www.cinematicsound.net | www.facebook.com/cinematicsound | I HAVE TINNITUS! -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Bregt, I think you should change that emoticon to ':clap:' maybe? Makes more sense. -
- CommentAuthorfranz_conrad
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
James for President!
A butterfly thinks therefore I am -
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeJul 16th 2008
Yeah, but what's his stance on immigration? How does he plan to cut taxes while sustaining a better economy? Will he send our boys home from Iraq? Time to put your money where your mouth is Senator.