As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)

Not that I would know about that sort of thing.









...what?

If Steven tried to look for positive religious news, I'm sure he would find much more than weird news.
But, as they say, the good news are no news, so maybe it's not so important to write about people who live their faith and help people and their world along the way.
Or write about religious scientists, artists, etc.
But thank God they do exist and live.
That's how I see it.

Nobody's stopping you from finding positive religious news.

Religion can inspire people to do good, I don't doubt that. And it has certainly inspired great art. Morricone draws inspiration from his beliefs, especially in his religiously themed scores.

Overall I don't think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks though. Especially the abrahamic religions are soaked with us-vs.-themism, outdated and harmful concepts and magical beliefs. There's no doubt these religions have caused countless wars throughout the ages (heck, most of the world was conquered due to christianity), and they continue to cause division throughout the world.

The world seriously needs some new religious texts, without all the crap.

Peter

Not so. The men who flew those planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon truly believed they would be rewarded in the afterlife for their actions in this life. And these were well educated men! This was more than just a matter of power and money. It was a matter of faith too. And this is one of the countless examples the harm that religious indoctrination can have on society. (That's not to say that religious moderates are also just as harmful, that's obviously absurd. But the problem with religious moderation is that it inherently puts a veil around faith from being criticised, giving a certain amount of credence to religious extremism whether they like it or not: "Faith is a virtue. We should respect that.")

^
reply to Steven

As for me, I don't give credence to any kind of extremism, religious or not. I don't know Islam that much but I certainly know that most of the Christians do feel upset when they hear about extremities committed in Christ's name.
Anyway, atheist extremes are just as bad: according to moderate estimates, at least 600 millions have died until today due to the idea of communism.

Well, the problem here is the "no real Scotsman..." fallacy: the argument that "no TRUE Christian would condone extremist violence" really marginalizes the extreme excesses committed in exactly its name, from the burning of jews and witches to firebombing abortion clinics.

The problem is that at some point a religion (I was picking on Christianity here, but obviously it applies to each and every religion!) stop being defined by what people would like it to be (from holy books, good intentions, or whatever), but by what it turns out to be.

And in that case your comparison with Communism is most apt: the fact that it was grounded in the ideals of equality and social cohesion in no way negates the absolute horrors committed in its name.

In that very same vein, I see no constructive addition religion can bring to modern society.
Any purpose it had throughout history has been (or can be) adequately fulfilled by other disciplines or mechanisms, leaving human action to be decided by humanist ethical values rather than what some bearded men tell us another invisible bearded man condones or disapproves of!

No, I would imagine that you indeed hate religious extremism - and rightly so! But the point remains: religions all around the world teach us that faith is a virtue, and the stronger the better. It's important to keep in mind that religious extremists base their actions on their faith, everything else -like power, money and politics- is second to, and quite often born of, that faith.

As I mentioned, moderation allows a cover for fundamentalism. It gives license to the taboo of criticizing faith; it wants nothing less than our full respect. It becomes impossible to call in the question the ethical tenability in raising a child to develop the same irrational beliefs of the parents. Moderation is powerless to say the harsh and necessary things about extremist religiosity simply because it teaches that we "must respect faith."

Religious moderates seem also distracted by their own moderation; they do not deal in certainties like a Jihadist does. They might hear a story of a man who's just blown up a bus and think "No, that can't be faith? It can't be born of religion!" But unfortunately, it is. The discourse of religious moderation convinces us of otherwise, yet there is no evidence to support this.



This is a common misconception that theists often use unwittingly. You have to keep in mind that communism has nothing to do with atheism: communism is a set of ideological beliefs (much like a religion) and is in no way a direct result of atheism. Atheism is simply a non-belief in God, and it would seem odd to wage war on the basis of a disbelief in God. (Although I, like probably many other "atheists", count myself as agnostic in technical terms. I'm 99.99[ad infinatum]% atheist! )

Steven wrote


OK, then I say: governments and political regimes based on an atheist ideology. (Don't forget that atheism is an important part of the communist ideology)

It may be a part of communist ideology, but atheism is certainly not the basis for communism. Are there any atheist scriptures that tell us that communism is what every atheist should believe? Do atheists set up churches and teach their members that communistic ideologies are a natural result of atheism and therefore we should abide by them? Of course not.

I can't stress this enough: atheism is simply a NON-BELIEF in God. There are no ideological beliefs associated with atheism.

I know religions has been oppressed by communist regimes, and still are today, but my point is that atheism isn't a satisfying explanation. These regimes were power-hungry and paranoid, and they did everything to stay in power. Oppressing any potential competitor can be found in any dictatorship handbook.

Peter

It must be annoying for religious moderates to constantly be reminded of imperialism, the crusades etc, as it's not their fault as individuals that these things happened. It must seem unfair and it's certainly not productive. That's why I hardly ever use these kinds of arguments. I only mentioned it above because I wanted to express my own cost/benefit analysis, and it wasn't really meant as an attack. I can understand why some christians feel they have to retaliate by bringing up communism. I don't think it's a valid counter argument, but I can understand why it's brought up.

Peter

Should I remind you that one of the major cosmology physicists in the world, professor Michal Heller is a Catholic priest? I don't think he uses physics to find a physical formula for the existence of God, rather try to prove that science and religion MIGHT go together.

Qu'ran I presume, D.?