As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)

Off Topic » As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware) (Posts 601 to 630 of 1859)

- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
sdtom wrote
These things are best not discussed.
Golden Age Tom

It's never really been a problem on this board, plus there's only one mad yank here and that's you Tom
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
Timmer wrote
Nothing to stop YOU starting that thread D

Well?
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
edit
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010
Timmer wrote

Christodoulides wrote
Tell us tell us!

Any political thread would boil over within a few posts, this could also stem from a film music thread ( JW's JFK or Nixon or any score involving politics ), FSM being predominantly American populated it would turn into bitter ( and very personal ) slanging matches between Democrats and Republicans and whatever inbetween, even though these conversations are eliminated fairly quickly now you can still spot the animosity between various posters if, like me, you've frequented the board for many years.

And no difference with the religious threads either which always turn into right old ding-dongs, there's some seriously religious nut jobs at FSM. I particularly remember a thread about Miklos Rozsa's biblical themed scores turning into an all out ring war that went on for page after page before finally being shut down.

Yes, there's a VERY good reason why FSM banned politics and religious subjects.

Anyone else besides Me n' Thor remember these good ol' days?
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
sdtom wrote
These things are best not discussed.
Golden Age Tom

These things most certainly ARE best discussed, as we've proven time and again on this very board.

People should just learn to behave in a civilized, empathic and respectful fashion, and observe basic discussion rules.
'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeFeb 19th 2010 edited
sdtom wrote
These things are best not discussed.
Golden Age Tom

Poppycock. Religion is still a main driving force for societies all across the globe; of COURSE it should be discussed!
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010 edited
Timmer wrote

Christodoulides wrote

Timmer wrote
there's some nut jobs at FSM.

That covers it up too

We've not exactly been without them ourselves?

We're getting rid of them, slowly. In civilized ways.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeFeb 20th 2010
Martijn wrote

sdtom wrote
These things are best not discussed.
Golden Age Tom

These things most certainly ARE best discussed, as we've proven time and again on this very board.

People should just learn to behave in a civilized, empathic and respectful fashion, and observe basic discussion rules.

They have to be blessed with these qualities to act as such, something which clearly isn't obvious for everyone.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
http://whathappensafteridie.com/

Peter
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
Obviously heaven isn't visible to our mortal earth eyes. That's what it is.
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
plindboe wrote
http://whathappensafteridie.com/

Peter

Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.
- CommentAuthorPawelStroinski
- CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
http://www.filmmusic.pl - Polish Film Music Review Website
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeMar 1st 2010
Steven wrote
Obviously heaven isn't visible to our mortal earth eyes. That's what it is.

FACT!
On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeMar 1st 2010 edited
Steven wrote
Obviously heaven isn't visible to our mortal earth eyes. That's what it is.

Amen, brother.

Let's try some logic, shall we.

If something can't be seen it is invisible
Heaven can't be seen.
Therefore Heaven is invisible.
Invisibility is a property.
If something has a property it must exist.
Therefore Heaven exists.

QED

Peter
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010
the problem is that people can't discuss these things in a civilized manner. You can't discuss anything with someone who is convinced that Obama is the root of everything that is wrong in the US. You're better off to keep your mouth shut and your thoughts to yourself.
Thomas
listen to more classical music!
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010
The problem is that debating -especially dearly held beliefs- often leads to people getting more entrenched in their own opinion. It is a rare occasion indeed when you will convince an opponent by arguments of the invalidity of his own convictions.

The best you could hope for is to sway those that are still undecided.

But keeping silent has only ever been an option when people are acting like utter obstinate blockheads, or confuse the validity of logic with the lability of emotion as a valid arguing tool. Sometimes there's justno getting through, and then (and only then) I can see the point in just giving up.

But even being entrenched in one's own opinions should never stop a good debate.
If nothing else it will give great insight into another's motivations and points of view, and their arguments may prove immensely edifying and educating.
'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010 edited
sdtom wrote
the problem is that people can't discuss these things in a civilized manner. You can't discuss anything with someone who is convinced that Obama is the root of everything that is wrong in the US. You're better off to keep your mouth shut and your thoughts to yourself.
Thomas

These topics are indeed often uncivilized, but it's wrong to state that they always are. The art is choosing some good and nice debate opponents, and not go to places such as imdb or youtube to discuss these things. That said, I think this thread testifies to the fact that people can be civilized. Sure it's heated here and there, and not always pretty, but on the whole it shows that people very much can be civilized.

In any case, these kinds of debates are essential. Religion has a huge influence in the world and just as with politics, trying to ignore differences of opinion only make things worse. Debating, while often ugly on the surface, has a moderating influence. People never exposed to opposing viewpoints tend to develop more and more extreme views over time. It's no coincidence that debate is such a central element in free democracies, while dictatorships and theocracies always seek to stifle debate. Rule no.1 when starting up a cult is "don't talk with outsiders". That's not a rule to be desired.

Whether you're coming from the point of view of a secularist wanting to minimize religious influence in public policy making, a christian wanting to save souls or whether you just want to learn about the different viewpoints out there, debating is essential. No wonder that mankinds two greatest ideas, democracy and science puts such emphasis on debate and the free exhange of ideas.

Peter
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010
Martijn wrote
The problem is that debating -especially dearly held beliefs- often leads to people getting more entrenched in their own opinion. It is a rare occasion indeed when you will convince an opponent by arguments of the invalidity of his own convictions.

I actually don't think it's as rare as most people think. Nearly everyone keeps up a facade during debates and it can often be difficult to admit being wrong in the heat of the moment. This doesn't mean however that nothing gets through, despite looking like that superficially. When you ask people whether they have ever changed their minds about any subjects over the years, I bet you'll find that nearly everyone has. We all drift throughout life in our opinions and beliefs, and continually getting exposed to new evidence and arguments is making this happen.

I think people often say that debating rarely makes a difference because they have too grand expectations. You hardly ever see a major shift from one moment to the next, since humans are conservative by nature. But there's more going on than just the two opposing positions, pro and con. Beliefs change in incremental steps, and this is why it can so easily appear like they don't change at all. Zooming out and looking over longer periods though, beliefs change all the time.

Damn, I must be in a ranting mood today.

Peter
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010
plindboe wrote
Damn, I must be in a ranting mood today.

Not a bit.
That was basically my point, though you made it in slightly more verbose a fashion than me (which is a bit of an achievement, actually! ). Debates rarely change anyone's mind, who has already set himself to a point of view, BUT it CAN educate and shape opinion, the logical extension of which may indeed well be a shift in perspective and opinion over time.
'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010
I believe that as a citizen of a country it is a right to have medical help if one cannot afford it. In this country there are people who think that we've got the best health care system in the world . There are people who have nearly physically attacked me for expressing this view. Some of you might remember the horrible debacle I had to go through to get my blood thinner Aggrenox, which helps keep me alive, for less than $250.00 a month.
Thomas
listen to more classical music!
- CommentAuthorMartijn
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010
sdtom wrote
In this country there are people who think that we've got the best health care system in the world

I would not be surprised if these are the same people who think hedge funds are the best invention since the market economy got started, and that the right to use and bear automatic assault rifles is delivered directly from the mouth of the Lord God himself.

Arguing with idiots can be a most sobering experience.
'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn
- CommentAuthorsdtom
- CommentTimeMar 2nd 2010
Minnesota Martijn is a whole different world. I love my father but I can't wait to return to San Diego and spend the rest of my life.
listen to more classical music!
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
Why, as Martijn said, debates rarely change people's minds:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic … -the-brain

The finding adds to the mounting evidence against the notion, popular in the scientific community as well as among the general public, that religious faith is somehow different from other types of belief, explains co-author Sam Harris, also of U.C.L.A. In contrast to this assumption, he says, “Believing the sun is a star is rather the same as believing Jesus was born of a virgin.”

I don't think it's a very surprising result though. "God" is as real to them as the air I breath is to me... and I'd like to see someone convince me that air doesn't exist. (The obvious difference is that air is testable and provable.)
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeMar 10th 2010
Stephen Fry kicks catholic bottom: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbvr0m … shortfilms

I've always found him funny, but never realized how sensible and eloquent he is.

Peter
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMar 10th 2010
plindboe wrote

I've always found him funny, but never realized how sensible and eloquent he is.

Peter

Really? I take it you've never seen QI then.
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMar 10th 2010 edited
plindboe wrote
Stephen Fry kicks catholic bottom: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbvr0m … shortfilms

Good lord that man is a legend.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Catholics after that.
Well, not really. But he does kick some serious Catholic boo-tay.
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeMar 10th 2010
Actually the entire debate is quite entertaining, and I highly recommend it.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XpGyHJZ9b0
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER83SF3-DoY
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PP6e5q6OtA
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeeRuJ6eBUw
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYWl5Zw2kbU

I must say that the poll at the end amazed me. What an immense impact a little debate can have!

Peter
- CommentAuthorplindboe
- CommentTimeMar 10th 2010
Steven wrote
Really? I take it you've never seen QI then.

I did actually see a few clips some days ago. About science and such?

Steven wrote
Good lord that man is a legend.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Catholics after that.
Well, not really. But he does kick some serious Catholic boo-tay.

Hehe, indeed.

Hitchens is not bad in the debate either, but Fry is just amazing every time he opens his mouth.

Peter
- CommentAuthorSteven
- CommentTimeMar 10th 2010
I'm interested to hear our Catholic members' views on Fry's speech, if they're willing to watch it its entirety at almost twenty minutes (which, to me, felt more like two minutes).
- CommentAuthorDemetris
- CommentTimeMar 10th 2010
I am more interested in your fate which has been pretty much established already.
Love Maintitles. It's full of Wanders.

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As Above, So Below - the religion thread (formerly: People of California, beware)