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Actions & Consequences
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- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Thread created to alleviate the Jerry Goldsmith thread.
It started with this little incident, and its repercussion.
Last relevant posts (sorry for deleting 'em from the Goldsmith thread, guys, but I cannot actually move posts!):
Thor wrote
Bregt wrote
Ouch. Our first ban.
Sunil can defend himself in an e-mail if he wants (address on the About page).
If he has already been banned, I think that's a bit premature. I think the "last warning" strategy that Demetris forwarded was more appropriate. Sunil is an odd character, for sure, but I don't remember him being so offensive before, so I think he at the very least deserves a chance to make things up.
My two cents on this whole shebang.
christopher wrote
I too think the ban is extreme. While Sunil's post was outrageously inappropriate, I think it's a little unfair that he has taken so much flak for insults when he himself has been insulted so often without anyone saying that those insulting him have been in the wrong. I fear there has been a bit of a double standard in this regard. Sunil gets insulted --> no one says anything about it, or one or two people post the little LOL guy. Sunil insults --> everyone tells him to calm down and that he's out of line.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending what Sunil said in any way. I don't think, regardless of how many times you've been run down or made fun of (which is an awful lot in Sunil's case), that you are justified in lashing out. I agree with Thor, though. I liked the warning better.
Erik, I think you're one of the most knowledgable score collectors I'm aware of, and your show is absolute gold. I value your music opinions greatly and in my interactions with you you've never been anything but civil and pleasant. If Sunil is let back, though, I think you've got to lay off of him. Clearly his inability to accurately communicate and understand English, as well as a "western" sense of humor, are very annoying to you. May I humbly recommend that you just ignore him? You're pretty hard on him. I think a simple, "I was joking, Sunil," would have sufficed.
While we're on the topic, I think Justin is treated very unfairly sometimes, and could also stand to be treated with more kindness.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Timmer wrote
Could we put this to a diplomatic vote?
Just thinking aloud here.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
No, this is good. It needed its own thread. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Wow, this thread looks really weird on my computer right now and I didn't see Timmer's post here, too. My last comment was to Martijn, not Timmer, who's idea was just fine. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
<fixed>'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Needs fixingOn Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Why is my post squished to the right??
Helloooooooooooooooooo! Can you see me?I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Ah, better.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
wow, I kinda missed a show here
I had never any problem with Sunil, but then again I don't interact with him. So go ahead to discuss whether or not to let him back in
BUT THEN AGAIN, it does make you wonder why he has been banned everywhere already?
Perhaps he just doesn't learnwaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
christopher, your point is well stated.
However, my reason for the ban was not that tempers flared, or uncouthness was presented.
Lord knows we have more than enough of that, and generally to the amusement of many involved.
Let me make this perfectly clear: the sole reason for the ban was the vile and slanderous racism card that was dealt, which was irredeemably beyond any proportionate reaction.
To me that's as bad as actual racism or comparable mindless hate crimes. It is not acceptable. In any way, shape or form, and I don't give a DAMN how provoked, victimised or demonised someone thinks he has been.
The only saving grace would have been an immediate apology.
However, there was not even an acknowledgment of the enormity of the accusation.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Ralph Kruhm wrote
Sorry for being late, but as someone who has been there and feels almost the same way about Erik as Sunil does, I know exactly why he reacted the way he did. He has my full and complete sympathies. Yes, I would think twice about calling Erik a racist, but only because I´m not sure yet whether he is or not but the rest is exactly how I think about him. I just have given up reacting to his egocentric comments, because no one else would tell him to shut the frak up, and because I´m tired to fight the massive tide of Erik´s fan club. But that´s how it is around here. This is a free board where everyone can say what he thinks. As long as it is not criticism against Erik. He can tell bullshit as much as he wants, and as soon as someone speaks up, he tells people to get a sense of humour and to shut up and to go away. The only real troll this place is infested with is Erik.
There. Ready to be #2.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Ouch.Kazoo -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Martijn wrote
Yes, I would think twice about calling Erik a racist, but only because I´m not sure yet whether he is or not
I sense from the rest of your post that this is done in a flurry of emotion, which of course is your right (and we do know the bit of history you have here with Erik), but this remark IS skimming the razor's edge, indeed.
Care to elaborate on what grounds you are not yet sure whether or not Erik is a racist?'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Speaking of Under Fire... -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Hmm. Very odd. I've been around here from the beginning and have been on other boards with Erik for many years and am surprised to see your comments, Ralph. For sure, he has strong opinions, but don't we all? I've never seen anything which would make me call him a troll. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Ralph Kruhm wrote
Forget what I said. It won´t change anything about Erik or how he dominates this place with his shit.
Just take off the ban. Because Sunil got almost everything right.
No need for an apology, if you ask me.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Southall wrote
Hmm. Very odd. I've been around here from the beginning and have been on other boards with Erik for many years and am surprised to see your comments, Ralph. For sure, he has strong opinions, but don't we all? I've never seen anything which would make me call him a troll.
thing is, he uses the world troll because that's what Erik used to Sunilwaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Thomas Glorieux wrote
Southall wrote
Hmm. Very odd. I've been around here from the beginning and have been on other boards with Erik for many years and am surprised to see your comments, Ralph. For sure, he has strong opinions, but don't we all? I've never seen anything which would make me call him a troll.
thing is, he uses the world troll because that's what Erik used to Sunil
OK, now I see. I don't think Sunil is a "troll" either. Rather misguided on this occasion (to say the least), but not a troll. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Ralph Kruhm wrote
Forget what I said. It won´t change anything about Erik or how he dominates this place with his shit.
Just take off the ban. Because Sunil got almost everything right.
No need for an apology, if you ask me.
You spectacularly miss the point, Ralph.
Sunil was not banned for getting "almost everything right".
He was banned for exactly that part that YOU exclude as well in that statement.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Southall wrote
OK, now I see. I don't think Sunil is a "troll" either. Rather misguided on this occasion (to say the least), but not a troll.
glad we got that sorted out, there are no trolls herewaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh -
- CommentAuthorTimmer
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Saying someone shouldn't even refer to themself as a human being, is a piece of shit and a racist is a powerfully extreme summation of anyone whose name isn't Adolf Hitler.On Friday I ate a lot of dust and appeared orange near the end of the day ~ Bregt -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Martijn wasn't out of line at all. An amend is in order and then let
us move on.listen to more classical music! -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Well, I wasn't going to elaborate on this, but since it got its own thread, what the hell.
Here's how I observed the whole situation:
Sunil has from day 1 been an unusual character. No, I'm not pulling the "culture card" here, since we have lots of different cultures melting together here, rarely with any problems. Rather, you might say that he is not, perhaps, the "sharpest knife in the drawer". He reacts in simple terms to things ("Michael Jackson is awesome because his music is good!" etc.), he does not understand our tone, our sense of humour, our irony, sarcasm and references (then again, sometimes I don't either!) and he is FAR too sensitive to things he perceives as personal criticism, but which really aren't - again because of the language and humour barrier - but I've never - EVER - seen him instigate trouble on his own. He's not a troll. He just misunderstands things a lot, blows things out of proportions and overreacts.
Now, on the other hand, you have Erik, established board vet with an acerbic wit, a guy who tells it like it is, usually with few diplomatic terms. The rest of us know him and are used his prose and style - and even like him for it - but I can certainly see that it may be considered a bit "bully"-like to some.
Now put the two together and you've got dynamite! An oversensitive soul who doesn't understand our prose or tone and a confident man totally IN his element and with a kind of smart-ass tone. It's bound to clash, and bound to result in the verbal reactions it did.
Of course I am in NO WAY justifying Sunil's offensive tirade. I'm just trying to add a little bit of context. It was not a random outburst, but obviously triggered by Erik's "troll" comment and what Sunil probably perceived as him laughing in his face.
Since Sunil before this had a clean slate - really only guilty of being an odd-ball sprinkled with naïvité - I don't think his offensive remarks were cause for an IMMEDIATE ban. The "last warning" strategy that Demetris proposed, but which for some reason was abandoned, was the appropriate thing to do, IMO. Or at least let him in on "probation" now that he's learned his lesson. I doubt he'll do it again, but if he does, it's over and out. No complaints from me.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Very well said Thor, my thoughts exactly though I could never write them down as such...
But he must have felt really attacked personally to have reacted that way, maybe troll means something truly evil in his country?
So he's been banned? Unbelievable. Damn who will defend my pro Michael Jackson rants from now on?"considering I've seen an enormous debate here about The Amazing Spider-Man and the ones who love it, and the ones who hate it, I feel myself obliged to say: TASTE DIFFERS, DEAL WITH IT" - Thomas G. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
DreamTheater wrote
Damn who will defend my pro Michael Jackson rants from now on?
waaaaaahhhhhhhh!!! Where's my nut? arrrghhhhhhh -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Without reiterating my previous points, I imposed the ban for one reason, and one reason only.
I don't CARE about any kind of context, as little as when accusations of other 'hate crimes' of that magnitude had been leveled at anyone.
That accusation alone was sufficient, and I stand by my reaction. If any other mod sees fit to unban Sunil, he may be my guest. Or -and Bregt has already clearly stated that option earlier- Sunil is completely free to mail an unreserved apology and retraction and be happily reinstated. Obviously the latter option is preferable to me.'no passion nor excitement here, despite all the notes and musicians' ~ Falkirkbairn -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Thor wrote
Now, on the other hand, you have Erik, established board vet with an acerbic wit, a guy who tells it like it is, usually with few diplomatic terms. The rest of us know him and are used his prose and style - and even like him for it - but I can certainly see that it may be considered a bit "bully"-like to some.
I never understood what there is to like about the way Erik does things. I think I get the tone of humour from everyone else on this board just fine, and I can´t remember having strong difficulties with anyone else here but Erik. His way of talking is provocative and bully-ish indeed. He likes to throws an ugly comment about someone else´s constructive idea for a topic and waits for the bomb to go off, and when it does, he laughs at people´s faces and asks them to grow a sense of humour. But there is nothing funny or likeable about it. At all.
Martijn wrote
You spectacularly miss the point, Ralph.
Sunil was not banned for getting "almost everything right".
He was banned for exactly that part that YOU exclude as well in that statement.
What, for calling Erik a racist? I can easily see how someone could come up with the idea that he is. "Uh, I´m not American. I´m Canadian!". Yeah. Sure. Or was that considered to be HUMOUR, too?
No, I don´t think he is a racist. But someone who jerks around with other people like he does should be prepared to take some shit himself fro once in a while. To ban Sunil for ONE misguided rant on someone who has treated him like shit for the past months WITHOUT ANYONE stepping in and stopping Erik, that is spectacularly wrong. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Martijn wrote
Without reiterating my previous points, I imposed the ban for one reason, and one reason only.
I don't CARE about any kind of context, as little as when accusations of other 'hate crimes' of that magnitude had been leveled at anyone)
Well, you're the mod (along with the other guys), I'm not. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009 edited
Ralph Kruhm wrote
Thor wrote
Now, on the other hand, you have Erik, established board vet with an acerbic wit, a guy who tells it like it is, usually with few diplomatic terms. The rest of us know him and are used his prose and style - and even like him for it - but I can certainly see that it may be considered a bit "bully"-like to some.
I never understood what there is to like about the way Erik does things. I think I get the tone of humour from everyone else on this board just fine, and I can´t remember having strong difficulties with anyone else here but Erik. His way of talking is provocative and bully-ish indeed. He likes to throws an ugly comment about someone else´s constructive idea for a topic and waits for the bomb to go off, and when it does, he laughs at people´s faces and asks them to grow a sense of humour. But there is nothing funny or likeable about it. At all.
Since you're quoting me, I just need to clear up any misunderstandings that may ensue here. I don't have any problems with Erik myself. We disagree on a lot of things, but I appreciate his input, we're usually able to debate things in a constructive manner and I'm able to "deal with" his acidic tone - I even have some of the same myself on occasion! The above post was simply meant to describe the differing persona and how it possibly ended up the way it did.I am extremely serious. -
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2009
Yeah, I know. I just refered to the "like" part, but didn´t want to take it out of context.